BF stories 1 Alice and Peter óg

Nóra: [00:00:00] Welcome to Breastfeeding Stories. My nameis Nora and here we share the highs and lows, the positives, the negatives, the
successes and the challenges of our breastfeeding journeys.

Welcome to BreastfeedingStories and thank you so much for being our first guest. So maybe if you'd like
to start by introducing yourself and who's in your family.

Alice: Okay, thankyou so much for having me. I would, I'm so honored that you asked me. So my
name is Alice and my family is just myself and my nine month old Peter Og.

Great. So

Nóra: maybe if youwant to start talking about your breastfeeding journey, [00:01:00] maybe when you got pregnant or did it happen, did itkind of begin even before you got pregnant?

When did your breastfeeding journey start for you?

Alice: I've alwaysknown that I wanted to breastfeed. And that's kind of a mixture of, I suppose,
a lot of my cousins breastfed. There are a lot of older cousins and they
breastfed their kids, a lot of them. My mom breastfed all of us now, not for
very long, but it was just something that I just think was assumed I would do.

But also I'm, Montessori trained primary school teacher and inmy first year in college we did zero to three and a lot was talked about the
like really young infant stages of what's so beneficial for them and one
lecture was just really passionate about breastfeeding. So she kind of. Not
told us all to breastfeed when we have kids, but it kind of felt like that in
some ways.

Anyway, I bought into it. And so it was just something that Ijust assumed I would do [00:02:00] and hoped todo. So for whenever that came and then obviously it did arrive.

BF stories 1 Alice and Peter óg

Nóra: [00:00:00] Welcome to Breastfeeding Stories. My nameis Nora and here we share the highs and lows, the positives, the negatives, the
successes and the challenges of our breastfeeding journeys.

Welcome to BreastfeedingStories and thank you so much for being our first guest. So maybe if you'd like
to start by introducing yourself and who's in your family.

Alice: Okay, thankyou so much for having me. I would, I'm so honored that you asked me. So my
name is Alice and my family is just myself and my nine month old Peter Og.

Great. So

Nóra: maybe if youwant to start talking about your breastfeeding journey, [00:01:00] maybe when you got pregnant or did it happen, did itkind of begin even before you got pregnant?

When did your breastfeeding journey start for you?

Alice: I've alwaysknown that I wanted to breastfeed. And that's kind of a mixture of, I suppose,
a lot of my cousins breastfed. There are a lot of older cousins and they
breastfed their kids, a lot of them. My mom breastfed all of us now, not for
very long, but it was just something that I just think was assumed I would do.

But also I'm, Montessori trained primary school teacher and inmy first year in college we did zero to three and a lot was talked about the
like really young infant stages of what's so beneficial for them and one
lecture was just really passionate about breastfeeding. So she kind of. Not
told us all to breastfeed when we have kids, but it kind of felt like that in
some ways.

Anyway, I bought into it. And so it was just something that Ijust assumed I would do [00:02:00] and hoped todo. So for whenever that came and then obviously it did arrive.

Alice: Great. Andthis is just for my own interest.

Nóra: If you're goingto say on a scale of one to ten, one being not highly motivated and ten being
like, I am going to do this, come hell or high water, where do you think you
were on that scale before you had a

Alice: Peter ?

I was 100 percent a 10. Like, I, you know, you kind of, yousay, you say to people, Oh, like, I'll give it a try. But no, like in my head,
I was like, no, no, no. Like, I have to do this and I'm really lucky that it
did work out because I don't think I would have coped very well if it didn't
because I was so like Yeah, like I really wanted to do it.

Yeah.

Nóra: Okay. Yeah.That's really interesting. And so then kind of maybe you mentioned that in
college you had covered some stuff around breastfeeding, maybe more the
academic side, but [00:03:00] rather than theapplied, I don't know, throughout your pregnancy or before that, what kind of
training or had you done any kind of courses or preparation for breastfeeding.

Alice: And when Iwent to the, what the class that was put on by the hospital that I had Peter
Hogan which was really interesting and it was run by a lactation consultant.
And she kind of went through just the different things to expect and the things
that might come up. And then other than that, I suppose it was just kind of...

a lot was on social media. So seeing other moms who had hadbabies and their journeys. And because I was so adamant that I wanted to
breastfeed, I was like seeking it out. So I was looking for breastfeeding
mothers to see what they did. I kind of wanted to pump from early on. And so I
was kind of seeking out moms who did both things with that.

So you're thinking ofbreastfeeding mothers and yeah, yeah. So, or on social media [00:04:00] on social media more so like I because Ididn't have many friends who breastfed. Now, I did speak to some of my cousins
as well about their journeys, and then I joined a La Leche Legaue meeting
before I had him, just to kind of talk to moms who were already breastfeeding.

And yeah, that's, yeah, that's kind of what I did trainingwise, I suppose. Yeah.

Nóra: And was that inperson, the La Leche League meeting or online?

Alice: No, it wasonline on Zoom or something. Yeah. Cause I think COVID wise, they hadn't gone
back to in person meetings yet.

Nóra: Um, okay. Sothen kind of just in that preparation phase as well, I suppose you mentioned
that you wanted a pump.

Had you purchased a pump before you had started or had youpurchased anything else kind of in preparation for breastfeeding, you know,
when for, I'm going to the hospital, I'm bringing this with me or.

Alice: Yeah, so I didget like a [00:05:00] cheap pump which I don'tuse now. And I got the haakaa, which like, I was kind of like, okay, I'm just
going to use the haakaa and see how I get on.

And then if I want to buy a proper pump, I'll buy a properpump. And then other than that, I got like everything that people said. So I
had the creams, the nipple shields, the n I had the silver cups. I had the cold
compress. I had literally everything because I was like, I was pretty prepared
for that pain that you hear about at the beginning.

And I was like, I am going to be ready for this. So. Yeah, Ihad, I had it all.

Nóra: Okay. Okay,great. So it sounds like you're really prepared. Yeah. So then you mentioned
that you did the antenatal I always get confused about antenatal. Yes. It's
before the bab breastfeeding class with your hospital?

And did you do any clostrum harvesting before baby arrived?

Alice: Yeah, so from,I think whatever week you're allowed, so I think it was 37 weeks I did start
harvesting. I was leaking from like [00:06:00]quite early, like early 20 something weeks. So I kind of knew I would be able
to get some and yeah, so I harvested colostrum every day pretty much up until I
gave birth and had a nice freezer stash and I brought that with me to the
hospital. Well, not all of it. I brought some of it to the hospital with me and
the midwives kind of topped him up a little bit with that. When he was here, I
was kind of doing it kind of as I was hoping to bring on labor a little bit, to
be honest, I was like, get out, but it didn't work for me in that sense, but I
was really glad to have it.

And I kept it then in the freezer for like after his firstvaccinations and if he was sick and things like that as well so yeah I was
really glad to have done it and the weird thing was that every time I told a
midwife or a doctor in the hospital I was doing it. Their first question was do
you have gestational diabetes because it's, I think it's recommended for people
with gestational diabetes but other than that I don't know if it's as normal
for people to harvest it but like [00:07:00] inmy head, there was no harm. I was leaking it anyway.

Nóra: That's reallyinteresting. I would have, you know, I thought it was, it's the kind of the
done thing as a backup in case your baby ends up in NICU or anything like that,
whether you've got gestational diabetes or not.

Yeah.

Alice: Yeah, exactly.Like, it's just great to have just in case you need it.

Nóra: Yeah.

Alice: So.

Nóra: Then I supposecoming on to the birth of Peter og I suppose I think one thing I've learned is
that every mother and every baby are very different. So, would you maybe
describe yourself and Peter og, you know, is he a sleepy baby? Is he a hungry
baby? Is he like, did he come out looking for it?

Or, you know, and how about you? I suppose you mentioned youwere leaking, you know, from 20 weeks, so you obviously had a really good
supply. How would you describe you and Peter Rogan in the context of
breastfeeding?

Alice: Yeah, like Idefinitely have always had a good supply. I've been really lucky. Even when my
milk came in, I didn't have [00:08:00] this bigmoment of, oh, it's definitely here.

And I think that could maybe be down to the fact that Iharvested so much beforehand. So I was lucky in that sense. And then Peter og,
like, I don't think he was a hungry baby or asleep. He was just kind of like an
average baby. He had a little bit of jaundice. So I suppose he was a bit sleepy
to begin with.

That was very short lived. And then he did feed for like. everytwo and a half hours for a long time. Like he never really stretched. He never
stretched to three hours until he started solid food, actually. So I suppose,
yeah, he was a hungry baby in that sense, but it was also a snacking baby or he
is a snacking baby.

He would have like very quick, small feeds. He was always avery efficient feeder. So he Yeah, he would eat small amounts quickly and then
be looking for it again. Actually though in the beginning, his weight dropped
too much. Like I'm using [00:09:00] commonbunny ears there because you know, that's an argument for another day, I suppose.

But they kind of started saying to me that I was going to haveto supplement with formula. And they started saying that in the hospital to me.
And I think if I hadn't been on a 10 of that scale of wanting to breastfeed,
that would have been, you know, Like the end of my journey or the beginning of
the end, because, you know, you get into the cycle.

Which I say to a lot of friends, I say, if you really want to,if you really want to breastfeed, just know that it could be a possibility that
like formula is pushed on you and that's totally fine if that's what you want
to do, but just like be aware that you have options. So when I got home from
the hospital and he was weighed again, again, his weight was.

Too low. So they said I was going to have to think aboutsupplementing. But that's when I said, like, look, I have the colostrum and I
had a pump. So I just supplemented him with my own milk for like two days, I
think. And then they [00:10:00] were happy forme to just go back to, exclusively on the breast. So yeah, I suppose he wasn't
too hungry to begin with and then got very hungry.

Nóra: And at thatvery beginning stage, so like after you gave birth and what kind of birth did
you have?

So

Alice: I had anemergency cesarean in the end.

Yeah.

Nóra: And so were youable to do skin to skin with them straight away and latch them or how did that
go?

Alice: I did a littlebit of skin to skin which I didn't remember until I saw the pictures.

So yeah, I did tiny bit of skin to skin. And then my sister hadhim in the recovery room while I was, they were finishing up the surgery. And
then once I got in, they, yeah, they helped me latch him straight away. Which
was great. Now it was the most awkward experience of my life. Like I didn't
know where to put my hands or where to put him.

So they, they helped me latch them on straight away. And yeah,it was really [00:11:00] awkward, but it was.It was still amazing to have done it.

Yeah. Okay. And then that kind of like first, maybe 48 hours,your milk coming in, cluster feeding. Did you get the night, the night two
where it's just up all night?

Yeah, I had the worst night two ever. Like I was nothallucinating, but pretty much like, and he just would not stop feeding and
screaming and crying. And then. He was quite mucousy from, I think, from the
caesarean, so then he was like vomiting it up, and yeah, it was awful, like
really awful. At the same time, there was never a point where I said, Like I'm
done with this.

Cause the midwives were very good in fairness. They just said,anytime you want, you're ready to feed, give the buzz us and we'll come and
help you. And while sometimes the midwives would have conflicting information
to tell me, they still were on hand to help me, which was really amazing. Or
sometimes they'd come in and they'd say, Hey, [00:12:00]hasn't it been three hours since you started your last feed?

So like they were reminding me as well. Cause sure, like whenyou're so new into it, you don't really know. And you kind of forget that like,
Oh, the time starts from when you start your first feed, not from the end and,
and things like that, like it's all such a learning experience that they were,
they were actually pretty good in the hospital.

But yeah, no, that night too was awful.

Nóra: I'm like thatdoes the feed start from the beginning of the feed or the end of the feed like
and you're so sleep deprived and you're delirious and you don't even know how
many hours it was and oh my God it just it shouldn't be that confusing but
you're like if they started feeding at 12 the next feed is two hours

Alice: you know yeah

Nóra: It's like amathematical equation

Alice: all the time.

Yeah,

Nóra: I mean, that'sgreat. That's great that they were kind of keeping an eye on the times for you.
And did you log those feeds right from the beginning with a pen and paper or
anything like that? I know some hospitals get you to.

Alice: Yeah, no, Ididn't actually. And I didn't start logging feeds until [00:13:00] months later.

And I kind of just. Did it. And then it was only when a fewmonths later, my supply dipped a tiny bit that I kind of started timing them a
little bit and then I kept going and then one day, not too long ago, I realized
why am I still doing this? I don't need to, I know he's fine. So I stopped. But
no, from the, at the beginning, I didn't at all.

It was all just kind of feed on demand. And it. It does justdevelop into a pattern. So he did go then the two and a half hours, but it was,
that was a coincidence that it was two and a half hours. It was just any time
he wanted it, I gave it to him basically.

Nóra: Yeah. And soyou kind of said that you feel like you got, would you say that you got the
support you needed in the hospital?

You mentioned that the nurses were some, the midwives weresometimes conflicting, but they were always on hand. How would you describe it?

Alice: Yeah, like Ithink they, some of them are amazing and some of them have chosen to do the
specialized training, but yeah, it was very conflicting. Like one would come in
and say, feed 20 minutes [00:14:00] on eachside, and the next would come in and say, oh no, you don't need to do it on
both sides.

And, and the next one, something else. And then, like I said,that they said to me like, oh, you're gonna have to probably give formula. So I
think sometimes at the first hurdle, a lot of midwives, that's probably not
fair to say some midwives will say what we'll try and kind of give the formula.
And they're just trying to make you know, make sure that you and your baby are
okay. And they're also so busy, but I think I did actually ask for the
lactation consultant and I was kind of told, well, like you want to go home
tomorrow. So if you want to go home, you'll be waiting for her. And so you
might not be able to go home. So are you sure you want her?

And I was just desperate to get out of the hospital. So I waslike, okay, no, no, no, it's fine. It's fine. It's fine. So I kind of felt like
I was a little bit. guilted into not seeing the lactation consultant when,
before having him, I would still make sure even if things are going well, ask
to see the lactation consultant just to check things.

But then I kind of just kept my mouth shut things. I justwanted to go home.

Nóra: [00:15:00] Okay. That's, that's good advice that yougot. And in hindsight, do you think waiting that extra afternoon to see the
lactation consultant. What would you say to a mother? Would you say, see the lactation
consultant or would you say no?

I

Alice: would sayprobably yes. I think my latch was pretty good from the beginning. But at the
same time, it wasn't per nothing about it was perfect, of course. But I mean, I
I ended up being fine, but someone else, and I think a lot of people wouldn't
and I saw a lactation consultant pretty soon after I left the hospital, but a
lot of people, again, wouldn't.

So I would say, yeah, if you can wait,

Nóra: Yeah.

Alice: To see them.

Yeah.

Nóra: And then howhas your breastfeeding journey gone? You know, what stands out for you or you
mentioned that you saw a lactation consultant then again when you came home.

So. Yeah, so it's start,it's interestingly the one thing I never experienced and I'm sure a lot of [00:16:00] women will curse me is I never had anypain ever.

Alice: And, and Idon't know if I was just really lucky sometimes I put it down to the blossom
harvesting because I was kind of. at my nipples already, so they'd already kind
of experienced something, but I don't know, maybe I was just really lucky. So I
had all these creams, you know, in a silver cups, and I never needed them,
which I know I'm really lucky, but then, you know, my challenges came.

Later on so I'm quite a large chest and, you know, in themovies and stuff, you see people just cradling their baby in their arm and they
start feeding and that's it. But it just doesn't work. I mean, for most people,
it doesn't work out like that. But for me. I haven't been able to do that at
all. It's only now that he's much bigger that he can kind of get into that
position comfortably himself.

But other, until then, until recently, we couldn't feed withouta lot of support. So I went to the HSE breastfeeding support groups. They have [00:17:00] them in just various different healthcenters and it's run by a lactation consultant and she was amazing. Like she
was so calming and you know that she would physically go around to the women
and like push the shoulders down and be like just Relax.

And she's like, you know, drop your shoulders, drop your arms,bring you. And it was all about, you know, bring the baby to the breast, not
your breast, the baby. And, you know, it was, she was just such a breath of
fresh air. And we would sit around in a circle and we would all just feed our
babies and chat to each other.

The lactation consultant would go around to each woman and, youknow, talk to them. But then if something came up that the lactation the whole
group would benefit from, she'd kind of stop everyone's conversation and share
it. So like someone had mystitis. So she stopped the conversation and then
everyone was aware of what to do if they had it or, you know, when to get the
antibiotic, antibiotics and things.

So that was amazing. And then. Making the friendships from thatwe would all go to say the [00:18:00] parkafterwards, and how are numbers you know feeding amongst other women is, you
know, it makes you more confident you're able to talk to other women and say
like, Oh, this has been happening hasn't happened to you or, and I'm finding
this hard if you find that hard.

And so the that group I think. Is the main reason mybreastfeeding journey has been so successful because I went every single week
from when Peter og was 11 days old. I think I went to the group and I went
every single week until we started swimming when he was three months old. So,
you know, I was really religious about going but it was actually for the social
element more so than anything.

And the lactation consultants encouraged us to come even whenthings were good so that we could be kind of. That example for the other women
so they could see it getting better. And I remember my first time going, there
was a mom and she was like sitting back and her baby was, I think it's koala
feeding and she, they both just looked so [00:19:00]chill and I remember thinking, that's what I want.

And then when I was finally able to do that position once I waslike, I did it. I've made it to this point. So yeah, it's really nice to see
the, how other women. Progress and I had a really fast let down as well. So
when Peter was really small, he couldn't really handle that. So he would come
off the breast screaming and it would spray everywhere.

So public feeding was really difficult for me because I feltlike I couldn't calm my baby because he was screaming and he wouldn't go back
on. I'd be spraying. So. For me, my biggest hurdle was kind of feeding in
public because I was so anxious about how he was going to, how he was going to
react, if it was going to spray, if he was going to scream.

And then on top of that with positioning, like I found for along time, I wasn't able to feed without my breastfeeding pillow because I
needed that support. Or I needed to be in a really comfortable chair, but I was
never able to, [00:20:00] you know, sit on thegrass and feed him or, You know, just sit in the chair and feed him.

I really needed like cushions or a pillow. And I started tobring my breastfeeding pillow out with me. I had it under the buggy and I
didn't care anymore. I'd put it on and I'd feed him because I was like, okay,
I'm not going to not leave the house now anymore because. of this fear and then
slowly but surely I didn't need the pillow and now I sometimes use it at home
but really that's only just if I don't feel like holding him I'm trying to do
something else like be on my phone or something but otherwise I don't need it
and he he really is such a great feeder and I'm I think it hit once I hit seven
months actually is when I really really said I love this I don't want to stop.

It brings me so much joy. I feel like it brings him joy nowthat our feeds are more hours apart. They're longer as well. So it's quite a
nice [00:21:00] bonding time for us. And hedoesn't feed during the night anymore. So again, like just those day feeds are
really special now that I'm back to work even more.

So, cause I just feed him myself twice a day. Now the rest arebottles. Of Of breast milk. So yeah, they're really special. It's really
special time for the two of us. And yeah, my first goal was a year. Now we're
at nine months. I'm pretty sure we'll make it to the year and I'd love to go
now to 2 years and who knows after that, but I mean, I'm trying to manage my
expectations because I know that babies can self wean as well and your supply
can change.

But my, my big goal is one year.

Yeah.

Yeah. And so, it sounds like the kind of the big supply and thekind of fast letdown were challenges. Any other challenges that you faced.

I [00:22:00] suppose just the,the demand, it has such a demand on you. Like he was feeding through the night
through, as I was saying, like through the day he was feeding every two and a
half hours and that was 24 hours a day.

Alice: Like I wasn'treally sleeping. So I was feeling really touched out. And then with the public
feeding as well, like I was just getting, I was finding it a lot. So the best
advice, and it can be applied to anything really, is to never quit on a bad
day. So there were so many days where I was like, I'm done, I can't do this.

And then I said, just wait until it's another good day and thenquit. And then those good days would come and then I wouldn't want to quit. So
that's what kept me going. And now the only thing that would stop me is I don't
really like pumping. Like I did, pump every now and then since he was newborn,
because I've always wanted him to be able to take a bottle.

But now he has to take two bottles a day, five days a weekbeing at work. And I hate it. I hate sitting and being attached to a machine.
Now I'm only back to work two [00:23:00] weeks.So maybe it's just that it's the adjustment period, but I've never had to. Pump
this much this regularly. So when I'm pumping, all I can think is I just want
to be with my baby.

I don't want to be attached to a machine. So my respect and my.all goes out to women who pump exclusively or do a lot of pumping because it's
so challenging. I'm really, I'm not enjoying it. So that's the only thing that
I could potentially, that could derail me a little bit, but he's so close to
the year mark that I'm sure he'll start to wean from those kinds of day feeds
soon as well.

But the evening feed and the morning feed make it all worth it.So, yeah.

Nóra: Thanks.Brilliant.

Alice: You're aninspiration, Alice.,

Nóra: You talkedabout the, the burden that is on the mother, when you're breastfeeding and you
do have a support network there, your family around you. You know, how did they
find it? Or, kind of, what was their role in supporting you to [00:24:00] breastfeed? Because it's so demanding onthe mother, you know, like, What did they do to help or how did they find that?

Alice: Yeah, no, itis really demanding. To be honest, I, I didn't actually have a huge amount of
support. And it's not because they didn't want to support necessarily. I just,
because being a single mother like there is, They can't help with the nights. I
wouldn't, sorry, I wouldn't ask them to help with the nights, for example.

But even with the bottle, I, because I wanted him to take thebottle from such a young age and not refuse it. I was the one, a lot of the
time giving him the bottle and then pumping or pumping and then giving him the
bottle. So it felt really counterintuitive that like, this is supposed to take
the burden off, but I'm doubling my burden right now.

But then on the occasion where I did want to go somewhere andthere, they were able to give the bottle. So in that, in that way, it paid off.
And anytime I have [00:25:00] asked or helpwanting to go do something, they've always, I've never had an issue trying to
get someone to mind him. It's more me forcing myself to go out and do something
which I'm sure a lot of moms can relate to, but even now that I'm in work that
he can take the bottle is great.

At the very, verybeginning, you know being made sandwiches and stuff.

But no, I'd say it's been very much, I have done it very muchalone. And that's why the breastfeeding support group was so important to me.
And I think maybe more so than some of the other moms, like that's why I was
there every week because I needed I needed that community and I needed the
support to keep going and because I didn't necessarily have it otherwise.

Nóra: It'sinteresting like I, mine is Thursday so like I'm totally religious about it as
well but for me it's because like finding the breastfeeding is so challenging.
I've constantly got blocked ups and different things and like it sounds like
Arwen is just like yours, like the lactation consultants, they're amazing and
the community, I [00:26:00] wouldn't miss itlike.

You know, I had friends, they're like, oh, I'll come in thereand say like, no, sorry, Kirstie, it's my swimming group day. Yeah,

Alice: that's exactlywhat I was like. I used to say I can do, I can do any day, I just can't do
Wednesdays. And then when I started the swimming, I was devastated that it was
on Wednesdays because I didn't want to stop going to the group.

So anytime swimming's not on, I will go to the group, like.

Nóra: Yeah,brilliant. So. It's great to see that they're working, you know, that those
kind of initiatives do work.

Would you say you'veloved it from the beginning?

Alice: No, exceptthat seven months. Yeah, like I mean I liked it I liked that I was feeding him
I was proud of myself for being able to do it. I, forgot to mention I have PCOS
and so I heard that yeah your supply can be a lot of the time can be lesser
because of that. So I was really nervous about my supply.

So the fact that it was a good supply, I was, [00:27:00] you know, really happy with that. But I'dsay, yeah, I really, I really started loving it from seven months. And prior to
that, it was kind of like, yeah, like, I'm glad I'm able to do this. I'll keep
doing it. But like, I like it, but now I'm like obsessed with it.

Nóra: Yeah, I knowbecause there are like so many people are like get really, really into it. And
I thought it would be like that, but at the moment I'm like, no, you know,
Yeah,

Alice: yeah,

Nóra: challenging

Alice: but yeah, itis it is challenging, and I try really hard to talk about breastfeeding in a
really positive light without people thinking that I'm trying to pressure
anyone.

Yeah, because I think sometimes people can think thatbreastfeeding people. Have like an elitism to it but like I don't at all like
I'm really passionate about breastfeeding and helping people who want to
breastfeed. However, if someone decides not to I'm like, cool, that's fine.
Like, I think sometimes it can be hard to not come across as like you should
breastfeed [00:28:00] like that's not what I'msaying at all but I knew one is.

Nóra: I hate theformula of industry. I don't hate formula. That's, yeah, that's exactly it.
Yeah, but yeah, it's, it's a hard one. It's quite polarizing and stuff, but
like hopefully we'll, we'll get there. Okay. So maybe just to wrap up, if you
were giving advice to a woman who was intending on breastfeeding hope to
breastfeed in the future, would you have any tips or tricks for them?

Any equipment that you would recommend or any thing you wishyou'd known before you started and things like that?

Alice: I supposebecause I really prepared for the pain and that didn't come from me and that's
kind of all I prepared for in terms of challenges. So just to know that many
challenges can come about, in fact they will come about, you won't.

Your breastfeeding journey might start out great and then itwill get rocky and then great again or it might start out hard and then you'll
have a good few days and [00:29:00] it could gohard again. So just to ride the waves but to reach out for support, whether
that's through friends, a lactation consultant a group, anything, it's really
important to have.

To know that they're there, you don't always have to avail ofthe supports, but just to have an idea of where you can go. For the support and
also to know that you know you might join a group and it's not for you to not
to say okay well that's it like there could be another one that suits you
better.

And, yeah, to just be very open about your struggles because Ican promise you that someone else has had that struggle too. And, and to just
if you really want to breastfeed you have to, you have to kind of stand your
guns like I said I feel like sometimes formula is. pushed onto mums quite
quickly and it's not always the solution.

So just if you really do want to breastfeed, just stand yourground in that sense. Yeah.

Nóra: Okay. Great [00:30:00] advice.

Thank you so much, Alice. That was awesome.

Excellent. Okay. Thanks so much.

Alice: Not at all.Yay. Thank you so much for having me.

Nora: Thanks forlistening. If you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the episode with a
friend and rate and review the podcast wherever you get your podcasts from. My
special thanks to this week's guest and to Una Neil Anagon for the original
music. To feature on the podcast, go to www.

breastfeedingstoriespod. com Click on tell your story and booka slot.

Alice'sBreastfeeding Journey: Preparation, Challenges, and Success

In this episode ofBreastfeeding Stories, host Nora interviews Alice, a single mom to
nine-month-old Peter Og. Alice shares her breastfeeding journey, from her
strong motivation to breastfeed throughout her pregnancy to the preparation she
undertook, including colostrum harvesting and attending breastfeeding classes.
She discusses the challenges she faced, such as managing a fast letdown and
public feeding anxiety, as well as the critical support she received from
breastfeeding support groups and lactation consultants. Alice emphasizes the
importance of perseverance, preparedness, and community in overcoming
breastfeeding challenges, offering insights and advice for other mothers.

00:00 Introductionto Breastfeeding Stories

00:32 Meet Our FirstGuest: Alice

00:55 Alice'sBreastfeeding Journey Begins

02:50 Preparationand Training for Breastfeeding

05:52 ColostrumHarvesting and Early Challenges

07:20 Birth andInitial Breastfeeding Experience

13:33 Support andOvercoming Challenges

16:54 The Importanceof Support Groups

28:15 Reflectionsand Advice for New Mothers

30:09 Conclusion andThanks

Nóra: If you're goingto say on a scale of one to ten, one being not highly motivated and ten being
like, I am going to do this, come hell or high water, where do you think you
were on that scale before you had a

Alice: Peter ?

I was 100 percent a 10. Like, I, you know, you kind of, yousay, you say to people, Oh, like, I'll give it a try. But no, like in my head,
I was like, no, no, no. Like, I have to do this and I'm really lucky that it
did work out because I don't think I would have coped very well if it didn't
because I was so like Yeah, like I really wanted to do it.

Yeah.

Nóra: Okay. Yeah. That's really interesting. And so then kind of maybe you mentioned that in
college you had covered some stuff around breastfeeding, maybe more the
academic side, but [00:03:00] rather than theapplied, I don't know, throughout your pregnancy or before that, what kind of
training or had you done any kind of courses or preparation for breastfeeding.

Alice: And when I went to the, what the class that was put on by the hospital that I had Peter
Hogan which was really interesting and it was run by a lactation consultant.
And she kind of went through just the different things to expect and the things
that might come up. And then other than that, I suppose it was just kind of...

a lot was on social media. So seeing other moms who had hadbabies and their journeys. And because I was so adamant that I wanted to
breastfeed, I was like seeking it out. So I was looking for breastfeeding
mothers to see what they did. I kind of wanted to pump from early on. And so I
was kind of seeking out moms who did both things with that.

So you're thinking ofbreastfeeding mothers and yeah, yeah. So, or on social media [00:04:00] on social media more so like I because Ididn't have many friends who breastfed. Now, I did speak to some of my cousins
as well about their journeys, and then I joined a La Leche Legaue meeting
before I had him, just to kind of talk to moms who were already breastfeeding.

And yeah, that's, yeah, that's kind of what I did trainingwise, I suppose. Yeah.

Nóra: And was that inperson, the La Leche League meeting or online?

Alice: No, it was online on Zoom or something. Yeah. Cause I think COVID wise, they hadn't gone
back to in person meetings yet.

Nóra: Um, okay. So then kind of just in that preparation phase as well, I suppose you mentioned
that you wanted a pump..

Had you purchased a pump before you had started or had you purchased anything else kind of in preparation for breastfeeding, you know,
when for, I'm going to the hospital, I'm bringing this with me or ?

Alice: Yeah, so I did get like a [00:05:00] cheap pump which I don'tuse now. And I got the haakaa, which like, I was kind of like, okay, I'm just
going to use the haakaa and see how I get on.

And then if I want to buy a proper pump, I'll buy a properpump. And then other than that, I got like everything that people said. So I
had the creams, the nipple shields, then I had the silver cups. I had the cold
compress. I had literally everything because I was like, I was pretty prepared
for that pain that you hear about at the beginning.

And I was like, I am going to be ready for this. So. Yeah, Ihad, I had it all.

Nóra: Okay. Okay,great. So it sounds like you're really prepared. Yeah. So then you mentioned
that you did the antenatal I always get confused about antenatal. Yes. It's
before the bab breastfeeding class with your hospital?

And did you do any clostrum harvesting before baby arrived?

Alice: Yeah, so from,I think whatever week you're allowed, so I think it was 37 weeks I did start
harvesting. I was leaking from like [00:06:00]quite early, like early 20 something weeks. So I kind of knew I would be able
to get some and yeah, so I harvested colostrum every day pretty much up until I
gave birth and had a nice freezer stash and I brought that with me to the
hospital. Well, not all of it. I brought some of it to the hospital with me and
the midwives kind of topped him up a little bit with that. When he was here, I
was kind of doing it kind of as I was hoping to bring on labor a little bit, to
be honest, I was like, get out, but it didn't work for me in that sense, but I
was really glad to have it.

And I kept it then in the freezer for like after his firstvaccinations and if he was sick and things like that as well so yeah I was
really glad to have done it and the weird thing was that every time I told a
midwife or a doctor in the hospital I was doing it. Their first question was do
you have gestational diabetes because it's, I think it's recommended for people
with gestational diabetes but other than that I don't know if it's as normal
for people to harvest it but like [00:07:00] inmy head, there was no harm. I was leaking it anyway.

Nóra: That's reallyinteresting. I would have, you know, I thought it was, it's the kind of the
done thing as a backup in case your baby ends up in NICU or anything like that,
whether you've got gestational diabetes or not.

Yeah.

Alice: Yeah, exactly.Like, it's just great to have just in case you need it.

Nóra: Yeah.

Alice: So.

Nóra: Then I supposecoming on to the birth of Peter og I suppose I think one thing I've learned is
that every mother and every baby are very different. So, would you maybe
describe yourself and Peter og, you know, is he a sleepy baby? Is he a hungry
baby? Is he like, did he come out looking for it?

Or, you know, and how about you? I suppose you mentioned youwere leaking, you know, from 20 weeks, so you obviously had a really good
supply. How would you describe you and Peter Rogan in the context of
breastfeeding?

Alice: Yeah, like I definitely have always had a good supply. I've been really lucky. Even when my
milk came in, I didn't have [00:08:00] this big moment of, oh, it's definitely here.

And I think that could maybe be down to the fact that Iharvested so much beforehand. So I was lucky in that sense. And then Peter og,
like, I don't think he was a hungry baby or asleep. He was just kind of like an
average baby. He had a little bit of jaundice. So I suppose he was a bit sleepy
to begin with.

That was very short lived. And then he did feed for like. everytwo and a half hours for a long time. Like he never really stretched. He never
stretched to three hours until he started solid food, actually. So I suppose,
yeah, he was a hungry baby in that sense, but it was also a snacking baby or he
is a snacking baby.

He would have like very quick, small feeds. He was always avery efficient feeder. So he Yeah, he would eat small amounts quickly and then
be looking for it again. Actually though in the beginning, his weight dropped
too much. Like I'm using [00:09:00] commonbunny ears there because you know, that's an argument for another day, I suppose.

But they kind of started saying to me that I was going to haveto supplement with formula. And they started saying that in the hospital to me.
And I think if I hadn't been on a 10 of that scale of wanting to breastfeed,
that would have been, you know, Like the end of my journey or the beginning of
the end, because, you know, you get into the cycle.

Which I say to a lot of friends, I say, if you really want to,if you really want to breastfeed, just know that it could be a possibility that
like formula is pushed on you and that's totally fine if that's what you want
to do, but just like be aware that you have options. So when I got home from
the hospital and he was weighed again, again, his weight was.

Too low. So they said I was going to have to think aboutsupplementing. But that's when I said, like, look, I have the colostrum and I
had a pump. So I just supplemented him with my own milk for like two days, I
think. And then they [00:10:00] were happy forme to just go back to, exclusively on the breast. So yeah, I suppose he wasn't
too hungry to begin with and then got very hungry.

Nóra: And at thatvery beginning stage, so like after you gave birth and what kind of birth did
you have?

So

Alice: I had anemergency cesarean in the end.

Yeah.

Nóra: And so were youable to do skin to skin with them straight away and latch them or how did that
go?

Alice: I did a littlebit of skin to skin which I didn't remember until I saw the pictures.

So yeah, I did tiny bit of skin to skin. And then my sister hadhim in the recovery room while I was, they were finishing up the surgery. And
then once I got in, they, yeah, they helped me latch him straight away. Which
was great. Now it was the most awkward experience of my life. Like I didn't
know where to put my hands or where to put him.

So they, they helped me latch them on straight away. And yeah,it was really [00:11:00] awkward, but it was.It was still amazing to have done it.

Yeah. Okay. And then that kind of like first, maybe 48 hours,your milk coming in, cluster feeding. Did you get the night, the night two
where it's just up all night?

Yeah, I had the worst night two ever. Like I was nothallucinating, but pretty much like, and he just would not stop feeding and
screaming and crying. And then. He was quite mucousy from, I think, from the
caesarean, so then he was like vomiting it up, and yeah, it was awful, like
really awful. At the same time, there was never a point where I said, Like I'm
done with this.

Cause the midwives were very good in fairness. They just said,anytime you want, you're ready to feed, give the buzz us and we'll come and
help you. And while sometimes the midwives would have conflicting information
to tell me, they still were on hand to help me, which was really amazing. Or
sometimes they'd come in and they'd say, Hey, [00:12:00]hasn't it been three hours since you started your last feed?

So like they were reminding me as well. Cause sure, like whenyou're so new into it, you don't really know. And you kind of forget that like,
Oh, the time starts from when you start your first feed, not from the end and,
and things like that, like it's all such a learning experience that they were,
they were actually pretty good in the hospital.

But yeah, no, that night too was awful.

Nóra: I'm like thatdoes the feed start from the beginning of the feed or the end of the feed like
and you're so sleep deprived and you're delirious and you don't even know how
many hours it was and oh my God it just it shouldn't be that confusing but
you're like if they started feeding at 12 the next feed is two hours

Alice: you know yeah

Nóra: It's like a mathematical equation

Alice: all the time.

Yeah,

Nóra: I mean, that'sgreat. That's great that they were kind of keeping an eye on the times for you.
And did you log those feeds right from the beginning with a pen and paper or
anything like that? I know some hospitals get you to.

Alice: Yeah, no, Ididn't actually. And I didn't start logging feeds until [00:13:00] months later.

And I kind of just. Did it. And then it was only when a fewmonths later, my supply dipped a tiny bit that I kind of started timing them a
little bit and then I kept going and then one day, not too long ago, I realized
why am I still doing this? I don't need to, I know he's fine. So I stopped. But
no, from the, at the beginning, I didn't at all.

It was all just kind of feed on demand. And it. It does justdevelop into a pattern. So he did go then the two and a half hours, but it was,
that was a coincidence that it was two and a half hours. It was just any time
he wanted it, I gave it to him basically.

Nóra: Yeah. And soyou kind of said that you feel like you got, would you say that you got the
support you needed in the hospital?

You mentioned that the nurses were some, the midwives weresometimes conflicting, but they were always on hand. How would you describe it?

Alice: Yeah, like Ithink they, some of them are amazing and some of them have chosen to do the
specialized training, but yeah, it was very conflicting. Like one would come in
and say, feed 20 minutes [00:14:00] on eachside, and the next would come in and say, oh no, you don't need to do it on
both sides.

And, and the next one, something else. And then, like I said,that they said to me like, oh, you're gonna have to probably give formula. So I
think sometimes at the first hurdle, a lot of midwives, that's probably not
fair to say some midwives will say what we'll try and kind of give the formula.
And they're just trying to make you know, make sure that you and your baby are
okay. And they're also so busy, but I think I did actually ask for the
lactation consultant and I was kind of told, well, like you want to go home
tomorrow. So if you want to go home, you'll be waiting for her. And so you
might not be able to go home. So are you sure you want her?

And I was just desperate to get out of the hospital. So I waslike, okay, no, no, no, it's fine. It's fine. It's fine. So I kind of felt like
I was a little bit. guilted into not seeing the lactation consultant when,
before having him, I would still make sure even if things are going well, ask
to see the lactation consultant just to check things.

But then I kind of just kept my mouth shut things. I justwanted to go home.

Nóra: [00:15:00] Okay. That's, that's good advice that yougot. And in hindsight, do you think waiting that extra afternoon to see the
lactation consultant. What would you say to a mother? Would you say, see the lactation
consultant or would you say no?

I

Alice: would sayprobably yes. I think my latch was pretty good from the beginning. But at the
same time, it wasn't per nothing about it was perfect, of course. But I mean, I
I ended up being fine, but someone else, and I think a lot of people wouldn't
and I saw a lactation consultant pretty soon after I left the hospital, but a
lot of people, again, wouldn't.

So I would say, yeah, if you can wait,

Nóra: Yeah.

Alice: To see them.

Yeah.

Nóra: And then howhas your breastfeeding journey gone? You know, what stands out for you or you
mentioned that you saw a lactation consultant then again when you came home.

So. Yeah, so it's start,it's interestingly the one thing I never experienced and I'm sure a lot of [00:16:00] women will curse me is I never had anypain ever.

Alice: And, and Idon't know if I was just really lucky sometimes I put it down to the blossom
harvesting because I was kind of. at my nipples already, so they'd already kind
of experienced something, but I don't know, maybe I was just really lucky. So I
had all these creams, you know, in a silver cups, and I never needed them,
which I know I'm really lucky, but then, you know, my challenges came.

Later on so I'm quite a large chest and, you know, in themovies and stuff, you see people just cradling their baby in their arm and they
start feeding and that's it. But it just doesn't work. I mean, for most people,
it doesn't work out like that. But for me. I haven't been able to do that at
all. It's only now that he's much bigger that he can kind of get into that
position comfortably himself.

But other, until then, until recently, we couldn't feed withouta lot of support. So I went to the HSE breastfeeding support groups. They have [00:17:00] them in just various different healthcenters and it's run by a lactation consultant and she was amazing. Like she
was so calming and you know that she would physically go around to the women
and like push the shoulders down and be like just Relax.

And she's like, you know, drop your shoulders, drop your arms,bring you. And it was all about, you know, bring the baby to the breast, not
your breast, the baby. And, you know, it was, she was just such a breath of
fresh air. And we would sit around in a circle and we would all just feed our
babies and chat to each other.

The lactation consultant would go around to each woman and, youknow, talk to them. But then if something came up that the lactation the whole
group would benefit from, she'd kind of stop everyone's conversation and share
it. So like someone had mystitis. So she stopped the conversation and then
everyone was aware of what to do if they had it or, you know, when to get the
antibiotic, antibiotics and things.

So that was amazing. And then. Making the friendships from thatwe would all go to say the [00:18:00] parkafterwards, and how are numbers you know feeding amongst other women is, you
know, it makes you more confident you're able to talk to other women and say
like, Oh, this has been happening hasn't happened to you or, and I'm finding
this hard if you find that hard.

And so the that group I think. Is the main reason mybreastfeeding journey has been so successful because I went every single week
from when Peter og was 11 days old. I think I went to the group and I went
every single week until we started swimming when he was three months old. So,
you know, I was really religious about going but it was actually for the social
element more so than anything.

And the lactation consultants encouraged us to come even whenthings were good so that we could be kind of. That example for the other women
so they could see it getting better. And I remember my first time going, there
was a mom and she was like sitting back and her baby was, I think it's koala
feeding and she, they both just looked so [00:19:00]chill and I remember thinking, that's what I want.

And then when I was finally able to do that position once I waslike, I did it. I've made it to this point. So yeah, it's really nice to see
the, how other women. Progress and I had a really fast let down as well. So
when Peter was really small, he couldn't really handle that. So he would come
off the breast screaming and it would spray everywhere.

So public feeding was really difficult for me because I felt like I couldn't calm my baby because he was screaming and he wouldn't go back
on. I'd be spraying. So. For me, my biggest hurdle was kind of feeding in
public because I was so anxious about how he was going to, how he was going to
react, if it was going to spray, if he was going to scream.

And then on top of that with positioning, like I found for along time, I wasn't able to feed without my breastfeeding pillow because I
needed that support. Or I needed to be in a really comfortable chair, but I was
never able to, [00:20:00] you know, sit on thegrass and feed him or, You know, just sit in the chair and feed him.

I really needed like cushions or a pillow. And I started tobring my breastfeeding pillow out with me. I had it under the buggy and I
didn't care anymore. I'd put it on and I'd feed him because I was like, okay,
I'm not going to not leave the house now anymore because. of this fear and then
slowly but surely I didn't need the pillow and now I sometimes use it at home
but really that's only just if I don't feel like holding him I'm trying to do
something else like be on my phone or something but otherwise I don't need it
and he he really is such a great feeder and I'm I think it hit once I hit seven
months actually is when I really really said I love this I don't want to stop.

It brings me so much joy. I feel like it brings him joy nowthat our feeds are more hours apart. They're longer as well. So it's quite a
nice [00:21:00] bonding time for us. And hedoesn't feed during the night anymore. So again, like just those day feeds are
really special now that I'm back to work even more.

So, cause I just feed him myself twice a day. Now the rest arebottles. Of Of breast milk. So yeah, they're really special. It's really
special time for the two of us. And yeah, my first goal was a year. Now we're
at nine months. I'm pretty sure we'll make it to the year and I'd love to go
now to 2 years and who knows after that, but I mean, I'm trying to manage my
expectations because I know that babies can self wean as well and your supply
can change.

But my, my big goal is one year.

Yeah.

Yeah. And so, it sounds like the kind of the big supply and thekind of fast letdown were challenges. Any other challenges that you faced.

I [00:22:00] suppose just the,the demand, it has such a demand on you. Like he was feeding through the night
through, as I was saying, like through the day he was feeding every two and a
half hours and that was 24 hours a day.

Alice: Like I wasn'treally sleeping. So I was feeling really touched out. And then with the public
feeding as well, like I was just getting, I was finding it a lot. So the best
advice, and it can be applied to anything really, is to never quit on a bad
day. So there were so many days where I was like, I'm done, I can't do this.

And then I said, just wait until it's another good day and thenquit. And then those good days would come and then I wouldn't want to quit. So
that's what kept me going. And now the only thing that would stop me is I don't
really like pumping. Like I did, pump every now and then since he was newborn,
because I've always wanted him to be able to take a bottle.

But now he has to take two bottles a day, five days a weekbeing at work. And I hate it. I hate sitting and being attached to a machine.
Now I'm only back to work two [00:23:00] weeks.So maybe it's just that it's the adjustment period, but I've never had to. Pump
this much this regularly. So when I'm pumping, all I can think is I just want
to be with my baby.

I don't want to be attached to a machine. So my respect and my.all goes out to women who pump exclusively or do a lot of pumping because it's
so challenging. I'm really, I'm not enjoying it. So that's the only thing that
I could potentially, that could derail me a little bit, but he's so close to
the year mark that I'm sure he'll start to wean from those kinds of day feeds
soon as well.

But the evening feed and the morning feed make it all worth it.So, yeah.

Nóra: Thanks.Brilliant.

Alice: You're aninspiration, Alice.,

Nóra: You talkedabout the, the burden that is on the mother, when you're breastfeeding and you
do have a support network there, your family around you. You know, how did they
find it? Or, kind of, what was their role in supporting you to [00:24:00] breastfeed? Because it's so demanding onthe mother, you know, like, What did they do to help or how did they find that?

Alice: Yeah, no, itis really demanding. To be honest, I, I didn't actually have a huge amount of
support. And it's not because they didn't want to support necessarily. I just,
because being a single mother like there is, They can't help with the nights. I
wouldn't, sorry, I wouldn't ask them to help with the nights, for example.

But even with the bottle, I, because I wanted him to take thebottle from such a young age and not refuse it. I was the one, a lot of the
time giving him the bottle and then pumping or pumping and then giving him the
bottle. So it felt really counterintuitive that like, this is supposed to take
the burden off, but I'm doubling my burden right now.

But then on the occasion where I did want to go somewhere andthere, they were able to give the bottle. So in that, in that way, it paid off.
And anytime I have [00:25:00] asked or helpwanting to go do something, they've always, I've never had an issue trying to
get someone to mind him. It's more me forcing myself to go out and do something
which I'm sure a lot of moms can relate to, but even now that I'm in work that
he can take the bottle is great.

At the very, verybeginning, you know being made sandwiches and stuff.

But no, I'd say it's been very much, I have done it very muchalone. And that's why the breastfeeding support group was so important to me.
And I think maybe more so than some of the other moms, like that's why I was
there every week because I needed I needed that community and I needed the
support to keep going and because I didn't necessarily have it otherwise.

Nóra: It'sinteresting like I, mine is Thursday so like I'm totally religious about it as
well but for me it's because like finding the breastfeeding is so challenging.
I've constantly got blocked ups and different things and like it sounds like
Arwen is just like yours, like the lactation consultants, they're amazing and
the community, I [00:26:00] wouldn't miss itlike.

You know, I had friends, they're like, oh, I'll come in thereand say like, no, sorry, Kirstie, it's my swimming group day. Yeah,

Alice: that's exactlywhat I was like. I used to say I can do, I can do any day, I just can't do
Wednesdays. And then when I started the swimming, I was devastated that it was
on Wednesdays because I didn't want to stop going to the group.

So anytime swimming's not on, I will go to the group, like.

Nóra: Yeah,brilliant. So. It's great to see that they're working, you know, that those
kind of initiatives do work.

Would you say you'veloved it from the beginning?

Alice: No, exceptthat seven months. Yeah, like I mean I liked it I liked that I was feeding him
I was proud of myself for being able to do it. I, forgot to mention I have PCOS
and so I heard that yeah your supply can be a lot of the time can be lesser
because of that. So I was really nervous about my supply.

So the fact that it was a good supply, I was, [00:27:00] you know, really happy with that. But I'dsay, yeah, I really, I really started loving it from seven months. And prior to
that, it was kind of like, yeah, like, I'm glad I'm able to do this. I'll keep
doing it. But like, I like it, but now I'm like obsessed with it.

Nóra: Yeah, I knowbecause there are like so many people are like get really, really into it. And
I thought it would be like that, but at the moment I'm like, no, you know,
Yeah,

Alice: yeah,

Nóra: challenging

Alice: but yeah, itis it is challenging, and I try really hard to talk about breastfeeding in a
really positive light without people thinking that I'm trying to pressure
anyone.

Yeah, because I think sometimes people can think thatbreastfeeding people. Have like an elitism to it but like I don't at all like
I'm really passionate about breastfeeding and helping people who want to
breastfeed. However, if someone decides not to I'm like, cool, that's fine.
Like, I think sometimes it can be hard to not come across as like you should
breastfeed [00:28:00] like that's not what I'msaying at all but I knew one is.

Nóra: I hate theformula of industry. I don't hate formula. That's, yeah, that's exactly it.
Yeah, but yeah, it's, it's a hard one. It's quite polarizing and stuff, but
like hopefully we'll, we'll get there. Okay. So maybe just to wrap up, if you
were giving advice to a woman who was intending on breastfeeding hope to
breastfeed in the future, would you have any tips or tricks for them?

Any equipment that you would recommend or any thing you wishyou'd known before you started and things like that?

Alice: I suppose because I really prepared for the pain and that didn't come from me and that's
kind of all I prepared for in terms of challenges. So just to know that many
challenges can come about, in fact they will come about, you won't.

Your breastfeeding journey might start out great and then itwill get rocky and then great again or it might start out hard and then you'll
have a good few days and [00:29:00] it could gohard again. So just to ride the waves but to reach out for support, whether
that's through friends, a lactation consultant a group, anything, it's really
important to have.

To know that they're there, you don't always have to avail ofthe supports, but just to have an idea of where you can go. For the support and
also to know that you know you might join a group and it's not for you to not
to say okay well that's it like there could be another one that suits you
better.

And, yeah, to just be very open about your struggles because Ican promise you that someone else has had that struggle too. And, and to just
if you really want to breastfeed you have to, you have to kind of stand your
guns like I said I feel like sometimes formula is. pushed onto mums quite
quickly and it's not always the solution.

So just if you really do want to breastfeed, just stand yourground in that sense. Yeah.

Nóra: Okay. Great [00:30:00] advice.

Thank you so much, Alice. That was awesome.

Excellent. Okay. Thanks so much.

Alice: Not at all.Yay. Thank you so much for having me.

Nora: Thanks forlistening. If you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the episode with a
friend and rate and review the podcast wherever you get your podcasts from. My
special thanks to this week's guest and to Una Neil Anagon for the original
music. To feature on the podcast, go to www.

breastfeedingstoriespod. com Click on tell your story and booka slot.

Alice'sBreastfeeding Journey: Preparation, Challenges, and Success

In this episode ofBreastfeeding Stories, host Nora interviews Alice, a single mom to
nine-month-old Peter Og. Alice shares her breastfeeding journey, from her
strong motivation to breastfeed throughout her pregnancy to the preparation she
undertook, including colostrum harvesting and attending breastfeeding classes.
She discusses the challenges she faced, such as managing a fast letdown and
public feeding anxiety, as well as the critical support she received from
breastfeeding support groups and lactation consultants. Alice emphasizes the
importance of perseverance, preparedness, and community in overcoming
breastfeeding challenges, offering insights and advice for other mothers.

00:00 Introduction to Breastfeeding Stories

00:32 Meet Our First Guest: Alice

00:55 Alice's Breastfeeding Journey Begins

02:50 Preparation and Training for Breastfeeding

05:52 Colostrum Harvesting and Early Challenges

07:20 Birth and Initial Breastfeeding Experience

13:33 Support and Overcoming Challenges

16:54 The Importance of Support Groups

28:15 Reflections and Advice for New Mothers

30:09 Conclusion and Thanks

S01E02 KimmiBF Stories Interview

[00:00:00]

Nora: Welcome to Breastfeeding Stories pod. My name is Nora and here we sharethe highs and lows, the positives and negatives, the successes and the
challenges of our Breastfeeding journeys. This week we talked to Kimmi, who
struggled to get her baby to latch early on, moved from combination feeding to
exclusively breastfeeding, back to combination feeding, back to exclusively
breastfeeding, and had a real rollercoaster of a breastfeeding journey.

Sowelcome, Kimmi, and thank you so much for offering to be a participant on a
Breastfeeding Stories podcast. So maybe to start, you would introduce yourself.
So tell us your name and who's in your family.

Kimmi: Hello, I'm Kim. I live with my partner, Callum, and we have a nearly 15month old daughter called Beth, and she is our one and only

Nora:

Whendid you start thinking about breastfeeding? And what motivated you before you
had baby Beth to think about [00:01:00] breastfeeding?

Kimmi: So, a little background with my own medical history is, from the age of19, I've been diagnosed with a microprolactinoma, which is a pituitary tumour
which affects your prolactin levels.

Andanyone that's breastfeeding has probably heard of prolactin, it's your milk
producing hormone. So, I've been able to lactate since the age of 19. To
varying degrees sometimes it's. Like, a droplet and other times it was wet t
shirt competition but I've always had this, throughout my adult life, this
ability to produce milk, so.

Iknew from the start, when I wanted to start a family, I was going to be
breastfeeding. Yeah, so that was, that was it. I was set from the start.

Nora: Brilliant, so it's like you got a head start on all the rest of us.Yeah. I'm sure you didn't appreciate that when you were 19, but okay, so on a
scale of 1 to 10, how [00:02:00] motivated would you say you were to breastfeed
before baby arrived?

Kimmi: Oh, 10, yeah, I was, I was doing it, like, I had been producing thismilk and essentially wasting it for over a decade. Like, if my body can do it,
I'm nourishing my baby. Like, it's coming from me.

Nora: And aside from the fact that you knew you were able to produce milk,which is actually probably a massive comfort to a new mother, did you have any
training or experience breastfeeding?

Didany of your family members breastfeed? Did you do any courses, anything like
that?

Kimmi: Yeah funny you should actually say when I was pregnant, by the end ofthe first trimester into second trimester, I stopped producing milk I couldn't
get a drop out, not a single drip and even for Zend, Harvest and Colostrum,
couldn't get, couldn't get much.

Butin answer to your question I was breastfed for about six weeks, [00:03:00] I
think. And then my mum was just like, Oh, hang this, you know, late eighties,
just shove a bottle in her and get her to shop and go to sleep and crush some
rusks up in it and fill her up. And yeah, so there wasn't much breastfeeding
through, through my family.

ButI went to a class with a lactation consultant. Before, actually, it's 39 weeks,
so I really cut it fine with going to that class. But that was really great.
The lactation consultant was fantastic, really supportive and pointed us in the
right direction. Not just with, like, her resources, but, like, free resources
in the local area as well.

SoI felt pretty good. Going in to like give birth, so feeding was going to be
great. Brilliant.

Nora: And was that passed by the lactation consultant? Was that free ofcharge through the NHS or did you pay for that privately?

Kimmi: I paid for that privately. Yeah. Interesting.

Yeah.

Nora: And then in terms of that [00:04:00] prep, you were cutting it fine,but had you purchased any equipment?

Solike a HACA or pads or nipple shields or anything like that? I was super
fortunate. My sister's sister in law had not long had a baby and totally
planned on breastfeeding and then didn't. So she just gave me like a huge
carrier bag filled with a haka breast pads, a nipple bam. So I had like that
supplied and then a work colleague gave me a manual pump. So I was. I was lucky
in that respect that I was gifted some like starter kit. So it was really good.

Great.Yeah. And I think so many women like that circular economy when it comes to new
babies use the stuff for such a short period of time that it's so great to pass
it on if you can.

Kimmi: Oh, amen. Like it's ridiculous for how much you spend for how littleyou use it.

Yeah.Like you'd never spend that money on yourself.

Nora: And so you mentioned the colostrum harvesting, did you manage to dothat from [00:05:00] the time weeks or earlier? Had you tried that?

Kimmi: Yeah, I was listening back to my notes and I wanted to practice. So Ilike sacrificed a one mil syringe. And it took me a week to get 0.

6of a mil, like that's how little I was getting. But yeah, I think the last
couple of days before I gave birth, I think I got two mils or something, a
couple of syringes. So yeah, it was minimal compared to what I can produce
normally on a day. It was, it was quite frustrating. Yeah, my body's letting me
down.

It's

Nora: kind of like a sick joke that you're producing milk from 19 and thenit's stuck when you start to need it.

Yeah.

Nora: And what were your expectations of breastfeeding before birth?

Kimmi: I, I'm not sure. I think it was just like, I'm going to go for it. I'mjust going to try it. And I'd felt like I'd done everything [00:06:00] I could.

I'dread the books because I'm obviously NHS in Scotland and they give you like a,
a magazine, Ready Steady Baby, and it's got like how to hand express and how to
breastfeed and position and attachment advice. And then I'd been to the class.
So yeah, I just thought I'd done what I can. Just need the baby to be here to
actually Get going.

Nice.Cool.

Nora: And so then if you think about having Beth and maybe just give a bit ofcontext within the context of breastfeeding, you know, every mother and every
baby are very different. How would you describe you and how would you describe
Beth? You know big or small breasts, a sleepy baby, a hungry baby any of those
kind of descriptions?

Kimmi: I am very large breasted, quite small nippled and Beth, when she wasborn was very tired very sleepy because I had been on pain medication and then
emergency section. So she was quite sleepy at the start and there [00:07:00]
was lots of, you know, cold cloth on feet and cracking out ice cubes at some
times, anything to try and get her to wake up.

Um,uh, but. I ended up going down the route of um, feeding support and they were
all like well your anatomy's fine and Beth's anatomy seems fine as well. There
was a query of a posterior tongue tie. But the NHS Forth Valley wouldn't do
anything with that, they're not a health board that do cutting, so you have to
go private if you wanted to go for a cut but we apparently were completely
incompatible.

Okay,right, tell me more. So Beth would not latch, would not latch, like I think
possibly because of me post birth, so I Ended up with [00:08:00] emergency
section. I was on opiate pain medication and I don't react very well with
opiates. So I was completely incapable of looking after Beth. I couldn't hold
her.

Iwas just vomiting and then just drifting in and out of consciousness. So Al and
my partner had to do The first 24, 36 hours of care and with that she ended up
being given formula in, in the hospital, which is fine. Like, she needed to be
fed and I wasn't capable of it. Um, yeah, from then I think she just had easy
access milk and did not want to work for it, so she wouldn't latch.

Andultimately I elected to stay in the hospital for an extra day to receive.
support with feeding. They actually, I think, helped encourage the milk supply
to come in, but we still couldn't get latching. But we did try nipple [00:09:00]
shields. So the hospital gave us nipple shields of a certain brand, and she
didn't have any interest in them, but I had purchased nipple shields on your
recommendation, actually, to just have at home. And when I got home, I tried
them, and she just Attached. Just went for it. And it was like, you know, tears
and snotters and, oh my goodness, this is finally happening. But, you know, the
medical professionals, they're a bit like, well, that's great, but nipple
shields aren't ideal. Like they're not, I got told they're not the gold
standard.

SoI was a bit like, okay, right, so then the aim was to get her off the shields.
Um, ultimately there was a lot of medical input, a lot of advice from health
visitors, from infant feeding team, from breastfeeding support and charities
and she's stubborn. So six months later, we were still on shields. [00:10:00]

Nora: Okay, but she was gaining weight and thriving and otherwise healthy?

Kimmi: Oh yeah, like she was amazing, she barely dropped any weight at all, Ithink under 4 percent or something she dropped. Wow, yeah. So she just, yeah,
she was getting her nourishment, she just didn't want it directly from me. And,
and I still don't

Nora: get what the problem with the nipple shields is, like, they seem towork for so many women, and this is kind of like, oh, but you have to get off
them, but why do you have to get off them if the baby's thriving?

Ifthe baby's getting the milk, then what's the problem? For sure. They seem to
work for a lot of women. And so, We'll just name off the brands here. Which
brand worked for you?

Kimmi: The Mam, Mam brand. Size

Nora: one. Size

Kimmi: one,

Nora: okay.

Kimmi: I'm small. Okay, brilliant. So good to know even that there's

Nora: different sizes in them.

Brilliant.[00:11:00] Okay, so you breastfed Exclusively or combined feeding or how do you
get on?

Kimmi: So in the early days, the first three weeks or so, we were what the NHSreferred to as triple feeding. So that is offering the breast obviously Beth
would not latch. So it was then giving her expressed breast milk, whatever I
could produce.

Obviouslyin those early days, it wasn't huge quantities and then topping up with
formula. So that was, A lot of time, a lot of washing, a lot of sterilizing, a
lot of preparation, a lot of cleaning. And then, you know, what it's like in
those early days, babies up every two, three hours. It was exhausting.

Insane.Like, I even was speaking to Callum about this, like, those first three weeks
are a complete blur. I think it's like, you know, you block out traumatic
events. Yeah. It's like, we were just like, Oh my God, this is never going [00:12:00]
to end. And then when the infant feeding team were saying like, you know, try
every four hours, because although you're saying it's three hours by time,
you're starting to earn the breast.

Andthen actually getting right to the end of the formula feed, it's been well over
an hour and a half. And then you're starting that cycle again. So yeah, when
they said four hours again, it was like sobbing, I think from both Callum and
I. Oh my gosh, we've got an hour of our lives back. Yeah, so triple feeding.

Yeah,so we went from triple feeding to then kind of getting rid of the formula
aspect and just doing express breast milk. 'cause obviously my milk supply
increased.

Kimmi: And yeah, we just kind of went from offering the breast to express milkand yeah, then it was like just. The shields, the shields seem to be working,
she's attaching, she's been able to feed, and she's been able to fill herself,
so we just gradually kind of [00:13:00] stopped doing express breast milk, and
she just went exclusive for five months.

Andthen, yeah, I mean, the shields work and they're great, but I was, like, there
was a times when I was out and then when you get to that four month stage and,
you know, they're discovering the world and getting so restless and wriggly,
and a couple of times she'd, like, rip the shield off and then it'd fall on the
floor.

Andthen you're just like, Oh my gosh, I haven't got the equipment to stabilize
this, and I've just, like, Like, covered in dirt and I so I eventually decided,
okay, I'm gonna start combifeeding. So, for a month or so, we were combifeeding
and it was fine. And then just before she turned six months, she was like,
actually, see those shields?

Idon't need them. And she just latched right onto me. And it was, it was
amazing. It was like, [00:14:00] what breastfeeding feels like when they talk
about like all that oxytocin being released and I felt like I hadn't really had
that kind of rush of hormones and that's what it felt like when she was
directly on my nipple it was like this surge of hormones and emotions and it
was just incredible.

Sowe had a maze in two months where we actually kind of got rid of the formula
for a bit and went back to exclusive breastfeeding because it was so easy and I
could just go out and I didn't need to worry about having these shields. And
then she got sick. She just had like her first kind of viral cold, really
congested, and she went on milk strike.

Andit was like, back at day one, we could not get her to latch, and so I was like,
right, we'll just get the shields back, we'll just do it all over again. She
refused. She wouldn't go in the shields either, so I was back to expressing [00:15:00]
and pumping and giving her bottles. Which she would take happily. And then,
yeah, I just, the noise of the pump just is like a massive trigger.

Andthen I was like, okay, this is it. So we just went to formula and that was her,
that was the end of my breastfeeding journey.

Nora: Okay,

Kimmi: brilliant.

Nora: I understand a lot of highs and lows and challenges. Yeah.

Kimmi: Yes. Exactly. For someone that, you know, could express or producebreast milk since 19 and was like, I'm so prepared for this, let's go.

Andthen like, she didn't have come with a manual. She didn't know what she was
doing and she had her totally own agenda and she literally went screaming. I'm
doing more than

Nora: three. I wonder where she got that stubborn streak from. And so thenjust go back to those first few weeks. When did you start using the nipple
shields? [00:16:00] How many days old was she then?

Kimmi: So they gave me some in the hospital but like I said they weredifferent brands and she wasn't interested so we kept trying them with the
infant feeding team and then I think yeah it was just the whole like well we
don't really want to introduce the shields because you know that's not the best
method of feeding or whatever but I mean I'd say Maybe on the second week,
because I was in hospital for like three days before I got home, and then with
all the input, so maybe we got the mam shields out the second week, and that's
when.

Nora: And then it took you a week or so to kind of get more established andconfident on them, and then you weaned off the bumping around the third week.
Cool. Okay. Yeah. Yes. It's interesting when you think back, like, Those key
little moments, if you haven't tried a different brand, or if, you [00:17:00]
know, maybe something else would have clicked for you, but it's such a time
sensitive thing.

Period.Yeah. Where you're trying to find a solution.

Kimmi: Yeah. I know. And I do think back to like, after the birth, being like,Oh, well she had skin to skin for a little bit in the theatre. But then as
those drugs continued to impair me, she didn't get skin to skin. Okay. And I
was like, maybe if I'd done skin to skin and she'd been able to root and, you
know, be on my chest and find a nipple herself, like maybe that could have made
a difference.

But,you know, I can't reverse time. Yeah. And it's taken me a long time to, like,
accept that because I was, yeah, I was really devastated with our journey and
how difficult it ended up being. And then, again, with the sudden stop, I think
I had a bit of, like breastfeeding blues. [00:18:00] Like, obviously all the
hormonal changes again.

Andyeah, there was a lot of beating myself up and I could have tried harder and
it's just because I'm tired, but, you know, it was what it was and it was
beautiful. Absolutely. Yeah. It's interesting. I think we're expressing our
expectations and then, you know, any breastfeeding journey is beautiful. A gift
and it's an amazing achievement by any mother, but sometimes we, you know, ICU
is.

Nora: It's so amazing what an incredibly resilient mother, you tried so much,you ended up with sleuthy breastfeeding and combination feeding, then back to
sleuthy breastfeeding, you know, that's incredible. But, but your own
expectation of, Oh, well, I thought maybe we'd go further or we'd wean this way
or, you know, I can appreciate that, you know, it can be pretty hard on the
mother.

Ohyeah, for sure. For sure. For sure. [00:19:00] And then like. You know, you're
in group chats with mums and there's some that just, you know, find it easy and
they've got their baby, like, hanging off their boob every afternoon. I want to
punch those women. I support them. I support them. But yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah.
Mhm. Yeah.

Kimmi: I know. Walking with their sling and they're just like, oh, just whapit a bit. Put them on. And you're like, how do you do that? I, like, have to
angle her a certain degree and, you know, encourage her multiple times and
she'll, like, eh, think about it.

Nora: Yeah. I do. I think the one thing, though, is actually the more youeverybody has a challenge at some point.

Mm.Yeah. Even, even those mothers. So so I think we kind of covered all this
anyways, but I think was there anything,

anyother challenges or successes or support or tools or equipment that stood out
to you? Any worries or anything else in [00:20:00] your breastfeeding journey
that stood out to you?

Kimmi: In the fourth Valley area where I stay in Scotland, our breastfeedingrates are really low painfully low actually and because of that there's been a
lot of funding from the NHS and from the Scottish government to encourage and
support breastfeeding. Because of that very near me, there is a breastfeeding
network support group. So I went along to that at three weeks.

AndI continued to go to that until I went back to work, even though I stopped
breastfeeding at eight months. And I returned to work when Beth was, one. So
for four months, I continued to go to that. Well done. Thank you. Just because
the woman that ran it was, she is incredible. She's so supportive and
encouraging.

Andthen because of that, I decided to get involved and now I volunteer for the
breastfeeding network myself. So I did a supporters, sorry, a helpers. [00:21:00]
training course which allows me to go into support groups. Can help with
position and attachment and talk to mums about how their feedings go and, and
my, my role is essentially to listen, but there's also like a few hints and
tips and then mostly signposting to other resources or medical professionals
that can help. But recently because I'm a school teacher and also the summer
holidays, I've been able to go into the hospital wards. And it's, I mean, the
oxytocin is so flowing, like you leave there and I'm like, oh, I could do
another baby. There's just these gorgeous little squishy tiny, oh, just fresh
out the packet babies.

Butyeah, talking to mums in those initial 24, 36 hours. And beyond about how their
feeding's going and little hints and tips and I'm sure you're the same like
your first [00:22:00] baby, everyone's prepared you for the birth. And then
it's like, here's a child on you go, good luck.

Soall these babies, https: otter. ai

You'rejust like, it's okay, like, you just keep it in your fridge, and then, you
know, advise on the guidelines, and you can freeze it for up to six months, and
yeah, it's, it's really nice to feel like I'm giving something back because the
Breastfeeding Network were really good. Phenomenal for me and really, really
helped.

Nora: Brilliant. Yeah. It was the same for me. I couldn't have done itwithout our local group and the peer support and the professional support and,
yeah, it's so important and so valuable and so lovely. One of my favorite parts
was the chats. Yeah,

Kimmi: I know. That's the thing, isn't it?

LikeI was going along and I wasn't even breastfeeding. I was just going for a cup
of tea and a blether. I know. Yeah.

Nora: I totally thought about going back. Like [00:23:00] my baby's inchildcare on a Thursday, but I'm off for the summer now. I'm just going into
the breastfeed group. See some babies.

Kimmi: But like, that's another part, like the mums, the other mums.

Like,I mean, yeah, you've got the mums that find breastfeeding so easy, and they're
like so proud that their babies never had formula, and you're like quietly
crying in the corner because your own baby's not attaching, but all of those
mums who are all the same age and stage, or even the ones that are more
experienced, like.

justhaving that village around you. So

Nora: lovely. Yeah.

Kimmi: Yeah. Because in today's society, like family aren't close by or, youknow, people have to go back to work. Yeah. And you're just left with a small
community. And

Nora: actually on that, so if family being close by, what was your partner'srole in Callum find [00:24:00] it?

Kimmi: Oh my gosh, Calum's amazing. Calum is amazing. He's a very supportivepartner. In the early days, if I was up, he was up. And this went on for quite
a long time. I think it was just the frustration of trying to get her to food.
So yeah, he was up with me for a long time, providing snacks and like keeping
me hydrated and like going and washing the, the pump and getting a bottle
ready. And so, it's probably months, actually, and he was back at work, and I
had to say there's, there's no point if you've been up at night. Okay, this is
especially when we were on the shields at that point. It's like yeah, and
you're getting up just to sit and watch me So it's time for you to like go for
a full night, and I think he was like, okay, that's fine But there's like the
guilt element because we get mum guilt.

Hehad dad guilt Okay, and then [00:25:00] and then I think once he'd had a few
nights of like good sleep. He was like, yeah, this is fine

Ican cope, I can cope with having a full night's sleep but yeah,

Nora: Callum is

Kimmi: amazing. Really supportive.

Andon the days you felt like giving up, what made you not give up?

Oh,I'm not sure. Honestly, there were some, some really tough days. I think
probably because I had to fall back on formula. I did get a break, in essence.
And I was just like, okay, she can just have a bottle this time. And what I'll
do is I'll express. And that'll make up for it. And then I think there was a
couple of days where I got like, I managed to pump a lot and I was quite
stubborn in the fact that I didn't want to be hooked up to the pump for ages.

SoI would do a maximum 10 minutes on each breast. Um, and I was one of those very
lucky people that when I did express, I could produce quite a [00:26:00]
volume. So I think when I expressed and could see. The milk was there, and I
knew that the next feed wasn't going to be formula, it would be express milk.

Okay,great.

Kimmi: Then, I think that's, that's probably what kept me going. And, like yousaid, Beth gets her stubbornness from me, so maybe it was just the absolute pig
headedness, like, No, God damn you, I'm going to beat you!

Nora: And that's cool, that's lovely to hear that story of like, where therewas formula that was expressed and that was on the breast, and You know, you
had those moments where there was maybe more formula, moments then where there
was combination, moments where then in the end she ended up quite old, then
going to see breastfeeding again.

Youknow, so I think like there's a lot of scare stories around like, if your baby
ever takes formula, they'll never go back, but it's lovely to hear that. Yeah.
Lovely to hear that for you, that wasn't the case at all.

Kimmi: Yeah. I know. Yeah. Like [00:27:00] when she did it, I don't even know.Why? I just, we were playing on the floor.

Shewas crawling around at that point. We're playing on the floor and I thought I'm
just gonna offer her my boob and I did and I was just sitting on the living
room floor cross legged and she just fed and I remember just like crying and
crying and crying. Her breath must smell like, what is wrong with this woman?

Yeah,and it was just yeah, that was the most special moment, but I don't know why
that she just decided that she could, and I don't know why I thought I'll just
offer her the boob and see what happens, and it just clicked. Something just

Nora: clicked. There's no rhyme or reason to them sometimes. Oh god.

Justto finish up any tips, tricks or advice that you'd have for a woman who hasn't
breastfed yet but maybe is pregnant and is thinking about it in the [00:28:00]
future?

Kimmi: Find local support, I think. I mean, it's not easy because like, if youdon't know where to look, you can't, it's hard to find, and then like once you
know it, you see it everywhere. So yeah, I'm certainly in, My local area, like,
every room in the hospital has a Breastfeed Network poster, and then there's,
like, Facebook groups for, like, Scotland wide, and I'm sure it'll be the same
in Ireland, and I'm sure it'll be in every local area, there'll be some kind of
group, but if you can find it and find people that are going to support and
encourage whatever your choices are.

Ithink people think as well, like, because I do breastfeeding network that I'm
like anti formula, but that's not the case. But yeah, find, find your tribe,
find your village, find people that are going to support and encourage whatever
your choices are.

Thatis some very solid advice.

Kimmi: For life, not just breastfeeding.

Yeah,

Nora: actually. So yeah. Thank you so much, Kimmi. That is. It's just been afascinating journey. I'm really [00:29:00] enlightening even though, as you may
have guessed, me and Kimmi are friends. And, in case you mentioned I gave her
that advice about the man with the nipple shields. But, even though I was kind
of trying to support you from abroad, that, It's fascinating to hear the
journey in a whole and from your perspective and hear the highs and the lows
and the different moments that jump out for me and what a brilliant journey
it's been for you and Beth, and then even better that you're going on and
helping other parents.

It'sjust amazing. very much. Thank you so much for being a guest on our podcast.

Yay!

Nora: Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed the podcast, please share theepisode with a friend and rate and review the podcast wherever you get your
podcasts from. My special thanks to this week's guest and to Una Ní Fhlannagáin
on for the original music. To feature on the podcast, go to www.

breastfeedingstoriespod.[00:30:00] com Click on tell your story and book a slot.

SHOWNOTES

Kimmi's Breastfeeding Journey: From Challenges to Triumphs

In this episode of Breastfeeding Stories, host Nora welcomes Kimmi, whodetails her fluctuating breastfeeding journey. From struggling to latch her
newborn, facing medical challenges, and navigating combination feeding, to
ultimately finding success with nipple shields and returning to exclusive
breastfeeding, Kimmi shares her highs and lows. She also speaks on the support
she received from local breastfeeding networks, her personal background with
microprolactinoma, and how she now volunteers to help new mothers. The episode
highlights the importance of perseverance, support, and resourcefulness in
breastfeeding.

00:00 Introduction to Breastfeeding Stories Pod

00:12 Meet Kimmi: A Rollercoaster Breastfeeding Journey

01:01 Kimmi's Background and Early Breastfeeding Thoughts

02:35 Challenges and Support in the Early Days

08:56 The Role of Nipple Shields and Feeding Techniques

10:59 Transitioning Between Feeding Methods

20:02 Support Networks and Volunteering

23:53 Partner Support and Overcoming Challenges

27:52 Final Thoughts and Advice for New Mothers

28:54Conclusion and Podcast Wrap-Up

Use a text section to describe your values, show more info, summarize a topic, or tell a story. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore.

Ana'sInterview

[00:00:00]Welcome to Breastfeeding Stories. My name is Nora and here we share the highs
and lows, the positives, the negatives, the successes and the challenges of our
breastfeeding journeys. This week I talked to Anna who started her
breastfeeding journey in NICU with her four pound baby and is continuing now 20
months later.

Nora: So welcome, Anna, to BreastfeedingStories. Thanks so much for being a guest.

So maybe tostart with, you would introduce who's in your family.

Ana: Okay. So it's me, Olivia, who is 20months now, and Connor, and the dog. Don't

Nora: forget

Ana: the

Nora: dog. And when did you start thinkingabout breastfeeding?

Ana: So. I knew I wanted to breastfeedsince the day I decided that I want, I wanted to have a kid when I don't know,
I was like 21 or something [00:01:00] in nutrition school.

And when I wentthrough my training experience in the NICU, I was like okay, if I ever won't
have a kid, this is something that I want, definitely want to do. And I never
thought otherwise.

Nora: Okay. That's interesting.. So whatage were you when you had that experience that kind of.

Ana: I must have been about 21 or 22,maybe.

Yeah. Still,still in university. And obviously with my background being from Guatemala,
being exposed to a kids with deficiencies, you could see the difference
between. Peop like, you know, in development with kids with proper access to
nutrition from pregnancy, right?

So I set my mindthat, okay, this is, you know, I'm a healthy person. This is the, you know,
best [00:02:00] natural route to do it. I think it makes sense with me.

Okay, cool. So

Nora: on a scale of one to ten, if ten wasvery, very motivated how motivated would you say that you were to breastfeed
before baby arrived?

Ten, definitely.Okay. And so you mentioned that you studied nutrition and you had some exposure
to maybe different feeding methods. Did you have any other training or
experience in breastfeeding? Did family members breastfeed or friends or did
you do any courses?

Ana: Yeah, well, my mom did breastfeed thefour of us.

I think I wasthe longest she breastfed for eight months. Family, other family members,
honestly, I have not been that close to anyone. But a couple of my friends who
are a couple years older had breastfed and I was exposed to that and it just,
they just seemed so comfortable and happy with it that I was like, this really
seems like something that will be [00:03:00] fulfilling and even, you know,
yeah, with the challenges it brings, I can see the reward and the Kids are
healthy and happy and they are healthy and happy.

So

Nora: yeah. And so had you been to anygroups or anything like that in terms of when you were preparing for Olivia's
birth? Is there anything you did from a breastfeeding point of view?

Ana: Not, not in advance.

Nora: Ah, okay, right, okay. Yeah. So,yeah, what happened? So,

Ana: like, I don't know, you know, we'reboth small. So, I knew, like, the baby had nowhere to be big from. But at the
20, okay, 20 week scan, I didn't go because we had COVID. So, went back 22
weeks for the 20 week scan. And the doctor was like, it's very small. I want to
send you to the, to the high risk clinic because I'm not happy with the
measurements.

Okay. And I waslike, yeah, but I was three pounds when I, when I was [00:04:00] born, so I'm
not surprised by this. Tiny, small. Oh my goodness. Yeah. So I was like, okay,
first they don't, they don't let you not do it. Right. So I was sent to the
high, high risk clinic. They started monitoring me every two weeks at first.

And then everyweek from week, like from week 30, I think it was every week. Okay.

And yeah,between, and you know, like they save the scans on the file, whatever. From
week 34 to 35, I lost half of my pneumatic fluid, basically my water broke and
I didn't, I thought I was, I had just peed myself because I was sneezing or
something. And so by week 35, went in for the appointment and the doctor said
like, okay, you're staying in.

Okay. And I waslike, I don't have anything ready. So she said, okay, I'll go, like they put me
the, the first shot with for the lungs. Okay.

I don't [00:05:00]recall. Yes. She let me come home, get my stuff and go back in the afternoon to
the hospital. So basically I was stuck to the monitor a few times a day for 10
days before the section, right?

I was. It was soannoying, like so boring and annoying. And honestly, the midwives were great
and they did tell me like, Oh, collect colostrum, but no one taught me how to.
Okay. And honestly, I was not in a mental space to Google it and do it on my
own. Like, you know, just being in the hospital environment is stressful
anyways.

She was bornfour pounds, two kilos for whoever wants to. It's to know the measurement in
kilos straight to the NICU. Okay. I, like 3 p. m., three, quarter past three,
she was born. I was sent back to recovery and I didn't see her until midnight
and then, it's a long time. Yeah. So then I spent from midnight to 2 a.

m. in the NICUwith the baby [00:06:00] on top of me trying to breastfeed. And like, she was
not like, you know, she was so small, obviously born at 36 weeks. She didn't
have her suction reflex. So basically then the, the nurse said like, Oh, we
need to put her on formula. I was like, no way. And she was like, okay, I'll
put her on fluids.

But like thenext time I came back to feed, they were like, Oh no, we're putting her on
formula. You're, we're not even asking you because she needs to eat. I was
like, okay, so I like, you know, that, that stress of this is exactly what I
didn't want to do. Yeah. Sent me into like overachiever marathoner than I am.

And I startedbumping and like in the matter of, I swear, less than 48 hours, I went from
producing. Very, very, very few drops to overproducing.

Nora: Okay,

Ana: wow. So, yeah, we were 10 days in theNICU. I think it was about three days that she was with mixed [00:07:00]
between colostrum and formula. Okay. Until I produced enough to feed her
through the tube with only my breast milk.

Okay. And

Nora: it's amazing. It's brilliant. Youknow, I think that's, like, that's such a story of hope where I think, A lot of
people feel like, oh, well, if I give them formula, they'll never take the
breast or they'll never take for breast milk. And that's not necessarily true.
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I

Ana: was, I

Nora: was sorry. Go on. How did you, so didyou have a press breast pump before you went into the hospital or did you get
one from the hospital?

Ana: Well, I had bought a spectrum.

Nora: Okay. Yeah.

Ana: In the hospital. I was using theMandela that they have. Okay. Yeah. Until I don't know, Connor, a few days
later brought me my own pump.

So I got to

Nora: familiarize

Ana: myself with it. And then once I washome, I was using my pump here and [00:08:00] the pumps from the NICU when I
was in the hospital through the day. And then she was in the NICU for 10 days
until she could suck on her own.

Nora: Okay.

Ana: And we were like, when that wassuccessful for 24 hours, we were sent home.

Nora: So I'm going to bring you back to thehospital just to explain a little bit more to me because I didn't know anything
about it and with the tube. So was it a nasogastric tube or did it go straight
into her mouth or so it a little tube that went into her nose and into her
tummy.

Okay. And theywould take your pumped breast milk and they would hop it into whatever the bag
is. Yeah, or me or like

Ana: when I was there, I would do it. Youwould do it? Okay, cool. I have a picture of it, me holding the tube.

Nora: The syringe. Oh, cool. Okay. The

Ana: tube and everything. Yeah.

Nora: Okay.

Ana: So yeah, I found like a lot ofsupport.

Like I had,let's say in the 10, I was 10 days before and then 10 days in the NICU. So
through the 10 days in the NICU the nurses were great. I had [00:09:00] two
nurses I didn't like, which weren't there only once, but everyone else was so
supportive of the breastfeeding.

Nora: Brilliant.

Ana: So yeah, I did see a lactationconsultant twice inside the hospital.

And,

Nora: and how did you feel like in thoseinitial hours when you did get to see Olivia but she wasn't attaching to the
breast because of course she was so tiny. And. That nurse, that midwife was
like, no, she has to have some formula. Do you feel threatened? Did you feel
upset? Yeah.

Ana: Like, you know, I was, I was kind ofpissed because it was like before Connor was there.

Like I had tomake the decision on my own. Which, you know, it's tough and, you know, I was
so convinced that I wanted to breastfeed, which it was just frustrating. Like
obviously I understand from having been on that side, kind of us learning [00:10:00]
as a student that, you know, they want the best for the baby to have, you know,
the better chances of success.

So eventually Ijust said like, there's no point in me fighting it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Like just my rational brain took over and just said like, Flip it. Just say yes
and it won't be forever. Okay.

Nora: Great. Yeah. And I think that's, Ithink I would have been the exact same as you if I'd been in that situation,
like really upset.

But like, Ithink that's so cool to hear that. Okay. So the baby got four minutes at the
beginning because You'd had your C section, she was very early, all this, these
different things, but that with, you did the pumping and you were able to then
very quickly do combination feeding and move on to exclusively breastfeeding
through pumping.

So did you haveto keep pumping then when you came home because your suck reflex wasn't [00:11:00]
ready or did you manage to get her into the breast?

Ana: She was released, she was releasedwhen her suck reflex was. Ready, like they wouldn't let me bring her until she
was able to breastfeed. Okay. I kept pumping Because I had so much and then
government came and said like just pump less Just let her and eventually
regulated.

But well, no notlike it was better It got better, but to this day she's she's feeding and my
letdown is still huge. Like this morning I showered, I whatever, went out to
get her, you know, clean bra, clean shirt, put her on one side. Next, like, you
know, five minutes later, I look down, huge stain in my t shirt.

Nora: You know, that's just, yeah, thereare women out there that will be so jealous. Exactly. So, and And did she, so
like, then, so you were [00:12:00] in the hospital and you had been pumping,
she had been getting fed through a nasogastric tube and then to get her onto
the breast, did she latch okay, straight away?

Ana: So that was the reason 9 10 days?

That was thereason why I had to see more than one consultant, but because, like, we Her
mouth was so small and my boobs were so big that it was just kind of hard to
get her to latch properly. Yeah. So when we found, like they recommended nipple
shields, not like they didn't serve a purpose with what we were trying to
achieve.

Eventually Ifound a way to just how to hold her so she could latch properly. Okay. And I
think I saw Gopni twice afterwards. I went to, like, she came here once and
then I went to the group, but eventually I just found a way she would latch
and, you know, the, because she was a preemie, the public health nurse came
once a week for, I don't know how many [00:13:00] weeks, I don't remember, but
she came several times to measure her and, and, and weight her and she was
growing.

She was in hercurve. So I was like, we're obviously doing something right. Great. Okay. Yeah.
Because her, her weight gain was. Consistent.

Nora: Yeah. And do you find, I know thatsometimes like, the weight is like a double edged sword, you know, when they're
losing weight or not gaining weight, you know, it is It's so hard, you just
wouldn't do anything to get them to wait.

But, you know,did you find it reassuring then that with her being weighed every week, let's
say for, especially when she was very small, that you could say, Okay, well, I
know she's getting enough, even if we're not 100 percent sure that this is her
favorite position for that, or even if she's

Ana: Yeah it was great, you know, becauseI think for the specific reason that I was trained to plot those curves, I [00:14:00]
understood what was going on and I knew like, okay, she's she's eating, she's
pooping consistently, like, I was not worried.

And like, ifthere was any slight amount of worry. It ended the day she jumped from the
preemie pyjamas to the newborn ones, which was like a great achievement for a
tiny baby, right? Absolutely. Yeah.

Nora: Okay. Yeah. It's nice. I think likefor some people, and I think you're probably, you know, marathon runner, high
achiever, quite type A in some ways, you know, seeing that consistent weight as
an outcome can be really reassuring.

I know that alot of people find, you know, the worry of like, Oh, well, I don't know if I'm
giving them enough. Whereas if I gave them a bottle, I'd know exactly how much
they were getting. But that's a different way to, to measure and say, well, I
know my baby's getting enough because their weight is going up in the right
direction.

Ana: Yeah. But like, it also [00:15:00]makes you realize, okay, I need to stop being so controlling. Okay. Yes. Yeah.
You know, you have a happy, healthy baby. That's all you want. Like you're
right. Stephanie. You know, it's like comparing it to running, like, you had a
good run, no pain, your heart rate was not over the roof.

That's grand.Doesn't matter if someone else is running faster, like, you're doing your own
pace, your own, like, you know, every kid is different.

Nora: Okay. Yeah. Yeah, that's brilliant.As long as you enjoy it and the baby's happy, yeah. So what other challenges
did you have as you, I suppose, moved forward with your breastfeeding?

So you'vementioned the oversupply and did that impact Olivia? You know, was she kind of
like choking or flooded with milk or anything like that? Any other challenges,
any successes, you've mentioned a couple, any support, any tools that were
really useful?

Ana: I guess we learned, like, yeah, atthe beginning it was kind of frustrating for [00:16:00] her that it was so much
milk coming out, but I think we, like, she outgrew that phase very fast.

I think, well, challengeswas, you know, sleep and the insistence of, oh, don't, like, you know, don't go
to sleep. Just leave them in the next to me. So I eventually we, we started
being, I think she was about six weeks when I transfer her to my bed. I was
like, I need sleep, like I'll keep like, and I did it when Connor was sick.

So I kicked himout of the room and just snowy out of the room and it just, just me and her for
a few days on the bed. And I was like, okay, this works. Let's see how bringing
them back in works. And I don't regret my decision. Yeah, great. Yeah.

Nora: Yeah. And I know that Governor, soyou're talking about the breastfeeding nurse in this area often shares the safe
co sleeping guidelines.

And there are acouple of things that you need to optimize safety. But yeah, so like that
really helps you to get [00:17:00] more sleep. Okay.

Ana: Yeah, I think that that was one ofthe biggest challenges. But yeah, we haven't had, like, I did have she bit me
when she was starting to teeth and I got a galactocele, I think it's called.

So basicallylike a bubble inside my, inside the tissue filled with milk. I thought it was
mastitis. Well, it was mastitis, like it created a mastitis around there
because I had pain and I went to doctor, like I went to walking clinic in
Ennis. And the doctor just sent me whatever medicine they give you for that.

And then Ifinished the round of that and the pain had subsided, the hard ball was still
in my breasts. Like, and it wouldn't like, I did everything and it wouldn't get
rid of it. Okay. So I went to a GP and he was like, Oh no, it will, it will go
on its own. I was like, I had to go back a third time to the doctor and said
like, [00:18:00] refer me to someone who can see this.

Because thisbump on my breast is not normal. Okay. So I had to go. He sent me to a breast
expert who did an ultrasound and basically just told me like, it's like you
have a balloon full with milk in there. It's not creating any damage, but I'll
drain it. He drained like no anesthesia, anything just needle in five mls of
milk.

And he said likethe milk seems healthy. Okay. Okay. There's a flow in and a flow out. That's
not standing there. Come back. I had to go back three times. After the third
time, it never filled up again, but it was probably the weirdest thing that has
happened through my breastfeeding journey.

Nora: That is really weird.

I've never heardof anything like that. Well, obviously like I've heard of cysts and stuff like
that, but that's really interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Weird. Yeah. It's not good,
not bad. And, and that happened [00:19:00] after Olivia Biss. You think that's
what, okay, yeah.

Ana: Yeah, because I had no other traumaon my breast, like.

Nora: Okay, yeah. And did she bite for along time, or was it just like quite a quick phase?

Ana: I, like, that was a one off bite ofteeth in desperation. She's still teething and she still bites me from time to
time, but it's not some, like, I think now she doesn't. Because she's
uncomfortable, but she also kind of laughs at the fact that I, I'm in pain.

But we've beenworking through it and it's getting better. Okay. Yeah.

Nora: And, so did you have any like, nipplepain initially? Or you mentioned that one experience of something similar to
mastitis, any blocked ducts or any other thing challenges to it?

Ana: I mean, just the uncomfortable painof the first few days when your breasts are getting used to it.

But then I, Ihaven't [00:20:00] really had any other issues. Oh, that is so

Nora: great to hear. You know, it's lovely.Like, yeah, that is so lovely to hear. I think I'm very jealous of all the
women who have really seamless breastfeeding journeys, but it's so good to hear
them because I think sometimes. We only hear about the challenges, so it's, you
know, sometimes it just works so well and so easy, that's great.

And then whatwas your partner's role? So what was Conor's role in the breastfeeding journey
and how did he find it, you know?

Ana: He has been great support. He was, henever questioned my decision. He's, you know, at the beginning, he was always
making sure that I had enough water and food, like, you know, midnight snacks,
you know, that hunger attack.

And he's justcomfortable with, I think he just sees the happiness in both of us, because
he's just comfortable and actually we went home in, in November, right? And
home to Guatemala. Yeah. My cousin's partner was. Like, for [00:21:00] Olivia's
birthday party, she ran away to my room, my old room in my parents house, to
breastfeed her baby.

And Connor wentin to get something, a jumper or whatever, and she panicked when he walked in
the room, came down, and he was like, what's up? Like why do they have to hide
to breastfeed just because he's so used to me breastfeeding anywhere and
everywhere like

Nora: yeah

Ana: just naturally and I will ask like Idon't know it's a cultural differences you don't know maybe her you know
they're so close minded that they're not comfortable someone else seeing like
briefly seeing their breasts like I don't know I just think Connor is very
comfortable with breastfeeding.

I'm very happywith how my experience breastfeeding has gone. And yeah, I really great

Nora: support. Brilliant, yeah, I know. Andjust on that, I suppose you come from Guatemala, but you're living in Ireland [00:22:00]
now. I don't know, because obviously you've only had your baby in Ireland, so
you didn't have this experience in Guatemala.

But would yousay, like, is there a big difference? Do more people breastfeed in Guatemala?
You mentioned that, actually, your cousin was quite, I suppose, self conscious
about it. I suppose. Would it, you know, is it more breastfeeding in public or
in community or is it different the way they Like, it

Ana: depends because, you know, there'sdifferent faces to Guatemala, right?

It's a verydiverse country.

Nora: Okay.

Ana: The, there are about 23

Mayan groupswith their own language and their own culture. And I, from the very little that
I know, I understand that it is like breastfeeding is, is mainstream with that
group. But then there is also this The city, people, descendants from migrants
and like, and because of, I don't know, like people breastfeed for six months
and then once food is introduced, [00:23:00] they stop.

There's a lot ofpeople with money and come, like prefer their comfort, we just keep formula and
you know, there's everything. I guess it depends on what group of people you
approach. It is way more, it is way, way, way more diverse than Ireland.

Nora: So, I don't know,

Ana: like, I think there's a lot ofrealities there that are so far off from what we are used to here.

And I couldn'tgeneralize, to be honest.

Nora: So, on days that you felt like givingup breastfeeding, what made you not give up?

Ana: Olivia never took a bottle. Like, itwas very hard when she was in the NICU and then at home she never accepted it.
So, I just accepted the fact that that's our reality.

Nora: So, on the days you wanted to giveup, Olivia said, Sorry, mami, I'm not taking a bottle. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah.

And so Olivia is20 months now [00:24:00] and you're still breastfeeding. Great. You're still
breastfeeding, which is brilliant.

Nora: I'm just going to keep going untilyou're ready. I don't know what,

Ana: like, yeah, I don't have, I don'thave a target. Sure. And yeah, like ideally two years, but if she wants to
continue after two years. I mean, I'm sure the day will come when she'll say I
don't want it anymore.

Nora: And if you were thinking about kindof going back to give yourself advice or any other woman who hasn't breastfed
yet but is expecting a baby.

Is there anytips or tricks or advice that you'd give that woman?

Ana: I think looking back knowing that Iwas gonna, like, knowing because I knew we were gonna be in the NICU, that was
said to me, like the doctor said it I would have asked for advice on how to
collect colostrum and for help with that in the hospital because, you know, I
was there 10 days, I had the time probably that.

Everything elseI think, [00:25:00] I, I mean, if I, I'm, I don't have any plans for a second
kid, but if I do have a second kid, I, I'd say I would definitely approach the
lactation consultants with way more confidence. Okay. Yeah. What do you mean by
that? I don't know. I think it was just my experience within like was stressful
just from being in the NICU.

Nora: Okay. Yeah.

Ana: So I think like they said a lot ofthings that were probably very helpful, but my brain was not registering.

Nora: Yeah, okay.

Ana: Though I probably, yeah, preparebetter for that, I think. Okay,

Nora: it's a crazy time, those first, evenwhen you're not in a NICU, it's just hard to take all the information in and a
lot of hormones and everything.

And I thinkthat's where so many women really struggle with breastfeeding because there is
that kind of initial period where it's kind of [00:26:00] make or break.
That's, Not necessarily the case for everybody, but that's really interesting
that you knew in advance that you were gonna be in nicu, so it's lovely.

Then possiblyfor other women who might know they're gonna be in NICU to be able to hear your
story and know that, okay, well, you know, this'll happen and there probably
will be tube fed, but I could still pump and feed through the tube and even if
I didn't collect colostrum beforehand, you know, I can still do it when baby
arrives.

That you canthen have a really great breastfeeding journey and whatever that looks like for
you.

Ana: Yeah. And I think definitely sharingthe stories help.

So kudos to you.

Nora: Thank you. Okay. Well, thank you somuch, Anna, for being guest on breastfeeding stories pod. It's been a joy to
have you.

If you'veenjoyed the podcast, please share with a friend, leave a comment on the episode
and Spotify, subscribe and rate the podcast wherever you get your podcasts
from. My special thanks to [00:27:00] this week's guest and to Una Neil Anagon
at una. ie for the original music. Check out our website, www.

breastfeedingstoriespod.com. And if you'd like to share your story, just click on, tell your story and
book in your zoom call.

Shownotes:

From NICU to Nursing: A Guatemalan Mother’s Journey in Ireland

A compelling breastfeeding story about a Guatemalan woman living in thewest of Ireland. Her premature baby, born via C-section at just 4 lbs, started
life in the NICU and required tube feeding. Despite these challenges, the
journey led to successful breastfeeding.

00:00 Introduction to Breastfeeding Stories Pod

00:27 Meet Ana and family

00:45 Ana’s Breastfeeding journey

03:30 Pregnancy Journey

05:31 Birth and NICU

15:28 Challenges encountered on journey

Use a text section to describe your values, show more info, summarize a topic, or tell a story. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore.

Ann-marie& Robert

[00:00:00]Welcome to Breastfeeding Stories. My name is Nora and here we share the highs
and lows, the positives, the negatives, the successes and the challenges of our
breastfeeding journeys.

Nóra: So welcome, Anne Marie. I am veryexcited to have you as a guest on Breastfeeding Stories Pod. So maybe to begin
with, you'd introduce yourself and who's in your family.

Ann-marie: My name is Anne Marie Flanagan. In myfamily is my 13 year old son, so I presume we're definitely one of the oldest
families that you've interviewed so far. And Derek, my husband, Robert's daddy.
Great, okay.

Nóra: And so maybe, I suppose, Maybe give abit of background about yourself because I think, you know, it's going to be
really interesting to talk about your [00:01:00] experience of breastfeeding as
a disabled woman.

Ann-marie: So I suppose I was really delightedwhen we agreed that I would do this with you. And for a number of reasons. One,
I could talk about breastfeeding all day, every day. And Robert's 13, he told
me not to mention his name, but that's what teenagers do. , I was 38 when I had
Robert. I am a woman with a significant physical impairment. I use a motorized
wheelchair and just for the listeners to get a sense, I have an impairment
called arthrogryposis and I don't usually get into the name of it because I
suppose I always focus on what we call the social model of disability.

So it's aroundthe barriers, but in this instance, I think it is relevant and because to
describe my impairment, my wrists. My knees, my hips, my, basically all main
joints are what's called contracted. So I would have [00:02:00] limited
mobility and parts of my body would be fixed in fixed positions. And I suppose,
yeah, so it characterizes maybe certain ways in which I am parented mothered
and breastfed.

Which we can getinto.

Nóra: Yeah, that's, that's great to give abit of a background. And so then when did you start thinking about
breastfeeding? Was it before you ever had Robert? Was it during pregnancy? Was
it well before that?

Ann-marie: I'd say when I came out of mymother's womb. I, yeah, I, I was born a mother. I was just waiting for Robert
to come into my life.

And yeah, therewasn't a moment. When that became a reality, then when I was pregnant, that I
wasn't going to breastfeed. Yeah.

Nóra: Okay. So on a scale of one to 10,with 10 being extremely motivated, I'd say you were up there on the test.

Ann-marie: I was highly motivated without

a doubt. 10.Yeah.

Nóra: And so then when you did get pregnantand you were preparing for, The [00:03:00] birth of your child.

Did you do anypreparation specifically around breastfeeding? Did you speak to anyone? Were
there family members who breastfed? And thing like that.

Ann-marie: Yeah. So yes I suppose maybe likeafter the period of concern and worry now I had an interesting experience
because once I got past the 14 weeks cause I had had a miscarriage.

So. I did feeltrauma and, and it was a number of years before I got pregnant with Robert, but
there was still a trauma and fear. I think I had an additional, I put it on
myself. I don't know if it's a site. It's a combination probably of society and
myself, but the burden of being able to stay pregnant and have a healthy baby,
which isn't.

Absolutecontradiction to who I am or what I believe, because whatever baby was going to
be privileged in my life was going to be welcome. And it wasn't about being
perfect, but there was that constant you know, [00:04:00] niggle and fear in
the back of my mind. So yeah, I would've done a lot of preparation with regard
to maybe when the baby came, when Robert came, how he would physically manage.

What was thephysical support of other people I would need? And then in breastfeeding,
trying to imagine that what that would look like, what aids if I needed it,
what physical support. But moreover, I just wanted to get into it with my
sisters who already were breastfeeding or breastfed. And my mother didn't
breastfeed.

You know, 50 years ago, as we know, There wassuch a huge focus on you know bottle feeding. And, I suppose it was all linked
to how society saw itself and what progress looked like, you know I always use.
You know a similar story just to explain. So here we are now trying to eat, you
know, work towards ensuring everyone eats greens and healthy food.

And when I was a[00:05:00] teenager you know, having a fast food frozen. Mini pizza was like
the ultimate treat, which I think that's how bottle feeling was presented. It
was progressive. So I didn't have a lot of that direct experience, but I did
have wonderful women in my life. So a very, very good friend of mine who had
raised five children and breastfed all of them, caramel and one of my best
friends, Julie, she was a teenage mom and breastfed her child.

For months, andso the two of them were really my rocks and then my, my, my cousin breathe as
well. So I had loads of wonderful women around me. And, but what was really
interesting and I loved going to parent and baby groups after Robert was born,
but I didn't join La Leche for some reason. And, you know, I didn't, maybe I
didn't have a need or something, but I had

loads ofsupport.

Nóra: Yeah, I suppose it depends. Sometimesthe groups come and go depending on who's in the community at that time and
things like that. So it might have been that there wasn't one in your area. And
so [00:06:00] I suppose then thinking around your healthcare support in terms
of maybe if there was another one with physical impairment listening, like what
support did you seek from your healthcare professionals?

Was it OTsupport or public health nurse or who supported you to prepare? For, okay, your
baby's coming and what positioning is going to suit you as a woman in a
wheelchair or with your different impairments.

Ann-marie: Now, Nora, you know me your wholelife. And what is humorous about this? When I go for support, I end up being
the support.

So in reachingout to incredible professionals, you know, occupational therapists, public
health nurse. Lactation nurse, you know, all those conversations reverted into
me possibly working with them to give them tips for the next mother. It was as
if I was the one and only disabled woman in Ireland ever to have a child.

And actually forthis, I reached out to two incredible friends of mine and they're, they're
younger than me and they're [00:07:00] they breastfed and they have different
physical impairments. I thought it'd be interesting just to ask them as well.
So for me, my direct experience was I remained the expert of my own body and
what I needed and it was okay, but I was, I wanted someone to come and be able
to give me the answers like everyone.

You know, therewas, I'm an activist if anyone doesn't know me listening. So I kind of wanted
to be the one. That I didn't have to have the answers. It wasn't my journey,
but that's okay. Because you know, I'm a solution focused person. I was always
going to find how to hold Robert when I was breastfeeding and work it out.

In talking toJulie, she reminded me of the very hard formed pillow. You can clip it around
your back. I found that hugely a benefit. Actually my cousin Breed gave it to
me. It was just amazing. And I wouldn't have managed without it because another
friend gave me the soft pillow.

And when I wassitting on the sofa during the day of which I spent a lot of my time for the
first few weeks,

so for me, I'mvery, very, again, a privileged person. I have [00:08:00] personal assistants
who assist me. And so to anyone listening, that's somebody who's employed to
enable me to do the things that I can't do on my own.

And that's notto parent my child, but to assist me with the things I can't do. And that even
trying to get that message across to I know friends and family that a PA helps
me not take care of my child. And it's really interesting. I wrote a journal
and an article in the journal and the amount of, Oh my God, negative feedback
around.

What am I havinga child? If I can't physically do it myself, the misunderstanding of what
mothering and parenting is, you know?

So an example ofthat might be just for the listeners would be like, so your PA would help you
to get that hard phone pillow and. Do the clip on your back, which you might
not be able to physically do it.

But you'rebreastfeeding, you know, I suppose they're enabling, they're, they're helping
you do the bits that you can't do so that you can parent.

But moreover,I'm instructing. So, you know, and I think that is the primary [00:09:00] and
subtle part. So, because there may be people depending on impairment, and who
are parenting, who literally need somebody to do all the physical labor part.

Because whatabout. So, for example, in some instances, you would have a parent, a mom or a
dad. They're holding their baby even with support. Maybe somebody is even
assisting to hold the bottle if that's the need. But I'm the driver of it. And
and so I would say, can you pass me this? Can you live? Can you put Robert in a
position?

particularposition. But I, as I said to you, I had children, all around me my whole life.
, I'm relatives are saying, would you often play? I, whatever new baby came
into our family, I wanted to sit under that baby in preparation for Robert.

I always talk about as well. The gift myimpairments gave me, because often people are going, especially those of you
listening or mammies and thinking, Oh my God, how did you do it? Like actually
not being [00:10:00] able to physically do other things. Give me the
permission. Not that I needed it, but the self permission to, as I said, sit
under Robert for as long as I needed to.

While he was asmall baby, take my time. breastfeeding heel from the section. And I had
everything. I had a little sofa in our tiny house at the time. And I had
everything on the sofa and the nappies, the cleanse. And I would if somebody
wasn't Derek, his dad wasn't changing him or winding him, I'd have everything
around me and everything was just literally there.

And as we all know, anyone recovering from asection anyway, it's quite painful. So. The other gift of my impairment was I
physically couldn't move around as much as anybody else. So there was a so many
benefits. I want you all to know, mammies out there or potential mammies out
there who have physical impairments, you go for it because there's loads and
loads of benefits to not be able to move around because there isn't the
expectation either.

But [00:11:00]also I do want to acknowledge . When I was getting the support from, you know,
whether my mother, my mother in law, friends, you kind of, you know, yourself,
Nora, when somebody is assisting you, you kind of give away autonomy because
you're so grateful they're there.

Nóra: So when, When a friend and family areassisting, we do let them do it their way. Whereas for me, my, my privileged
position was I had people who turned up on a daily basis who were like, okay, I
mean, what do you need and want? And they were paid to do that. That was a
fantastic experience

That's such an interesting reflection, Isuppose, for able bodied or women with physical impairments, we all know we
need huge amounts of support in the fourth trimester.

Nóra: But that differentiation between ifyou're dictating the sport versus if the sport is coming and they're dictating
how it's given. So yeah, that's something really interesting to think about. I
like to say directing, not dictating. Oh, sorry.

So back to thebreastfeeding then so in [00:12:00] preparation for the birth of your child You
had certainly done a bit of thinking about it, and you know, were prepared,
you'd gotten, a few different pillows you mentioned from family members. Was
there anything else that you got in advance of the birth in preparation for
breastfeeding?

Ann-marie: Yeah, I suppose I do want to justcome back to those moments after Robert was born. But actually my,
psychological preparation. I was very aware of the low statistics amongst women
who breastfed after a section. And I suppose I was going in my head, I was
prepared to be defiant in any, you know, restriction or encouragement to bottle
feed.

I was a tiny bit of disappointment when Ididn't get to do the skin to skin in the same way. And the maternity hospital,
I mean, honestly, it's lovely. I just want to touch on this for a second,
because everything is relative. So, you know, the moms who are absolutely
preparing for a vaginal [00:13:00] birth and you know, and when that goes
right, it's phenomenal when it doesn't can be heartbreaking.

And, you know,for my bar, I mean, was because of my impairment and the curvature of my spine.
For me, it was being able to have a section where I was awake. So you know, the
spinal tap and I have to give credit to the incredible anesthetist. He was just
amazing on the day, came in a few hours, he checked, rechecked my spine.

He knew that wassomething I really, really wanted because they couldn't guarantee it now,
especially with the curvature. But the anesthetist ensured that I was awake. So
straight away, I was delighted with that. But then Robert, so the policy, as we
know for C sections, because of course, the lack of coming through vagina,
heat, body heat, all that, they did put Robert into an incubator.

And, you know, Iwas like looking over at him and I was like, Oh no, I want to hold my baby, but
they knew I said, I want to breastfeed, so they took me out of the recovery
room and they handed [00:14:00] Robert to me and he literally latched on and he
wasn't letting go, and it was, and even when they were wheeling me back into
the ward where Derek and our mothers were you know, cause obviously I was in a
position after the section and to put him onto the right breast.

He's left, helived on my left breast practically for, for, for the first number of months.
So just, I wanted to, it's the psychological preparation I would say for me
just being really clear that that's what I wanted. The other thing is when I
was in hospital, there were two code blues. So they were just so understaffed.

So I am thelactation nurse, which it couldn't come near me. But I was prepared. So I was
able to manage away. She popped in an hour before I left. So there wasn't a
significant amount of support.

I was sharing a word with a woman from anEastern European country where culturally they breastfeed, her English wasn't
incredible. So my best friend was a doula and she was with me , I remember her
going over to the ward, just [00:15:00] being there for that young mom and, and
saying, yes.

I'll if you wantto breastfeed because I could hear the nurse encouraging the bottle and that's
why I say state of mind and that girl nearly gave in but we supported her to
help her baby latch and I thought that was a really nice experience that we had
together and I just to me I just want to labor that the psychological
preparation if I was to say one thing to be prepared emotionally and
psychologically.

And if you'reclear on your decision to, to just to be able to self advocate or have somebody
to support you in that advocacy.

Yeah.

Nóra: That's brilliant. . Letting the staffknow, letting everybody know that this is a plan beforehand and, , despite
under staffing, despite, whatever the different situations are, they know what
your desires are.

And so, theyhave to support you and they will support you as well, you know, the stuff, you
know brilliant. Okay. Yeah. So then throughout your breastfeeding journey, it
sounds like a dream start with baby latching straight away. And getting on
great, [00:16:00] you know, I suppose throughout your breastfeeding journey,
either through those initial days or, you know months.

You know, whatwere the things that stood out to you? Any challenges or successes, support or
tools that you found really good?

Ann-marie: Yeah, I suppose, you know, within youknow, within a couple of hours or days, I mean, my breasts were getting really
sore. My nipples were raw and just to persevere through the, you know, that
burning sensation.

But so on thismy nipples were sore. That was the I didn't use any shields or anything like
that. Again, any extra piece of equipment would have only been another. piece
of, other people helping me. So anything I could do myself, I just want to do.
But a funny little story, my brother flew in from Barcelona and to meet his new
nephew.

And of course, asingle man that he was, and he was like, like, what do you mean your breasts
are sore? And my friend beautifully turned around and pinched him and said, she
goes, did you see that? Something like that. [00:17:00] Cause he jumped back.
So just to, just to, so that you'd have some reality check

and another tipI counted to 10 when Robert was latching and my, it worked. It was just. I
counted aloud in a soft voice as I talked to Robert, and by ten then we were
sorted.

Nóra: Okay, so it was just that initialpain at the initial latch in the early days. About two weeks, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Rach, actually there was somebody texting in the WhatsApp group this morning
and saying, you know, I think there's something wrong, or like, no, no, just
keep counting, or holding a pillow, or whatever it is, and you will get there.

Right, and itpasses, but those. Initial couple of weeks, whether it's latch or the let
down,.

Ann-marie: Another, another difference betweeneven in the 13 years was, it's, it's wonderful to hear now that for women who
want to breastfeed that to express at 37 weeks the colostrum, I mean, I, until
I heard a discussion you were having with somebody that was new to me it's
something [00:18:00] I'd certainly have done because Robert was eight five when
he was born.

He dropped downto ten seven. He could afford it, but you could see the drama. They're dramatic
and he was very yellow. And actually the public health nurse, I remember, came
in one day to visit me. And of course, what did I have on him? Only a yellow. Baby,
should I take that off him quick? He looks too yellow.

Oh, he had agood laugh. So, you know, again, it's really interesting how we are, how we put
across our intentions because even though Robert was dropping weight but I was
really clear, you know, the milk was going to come through. I felt confident
you know, and when there was a suggestion of, you know, combining, I was like,
no, no

And so now when I reflect back and I think ofyounger moms or that fear of doing the wrong thing, you know Yeah, it's just
it's a you have to be really really clear, and so therefore I would encourage
everyone have the knowledge of it.

Nóra: So you mentioned that you had. a csection. How do you think that impacted [00:19:00] your breastfeeding journey?
I suppose we talked about initially in the hospital where you were very clear
on advocating for yourself that you wanted to breastfeed so that was really
positive. When you got home did that go okay

Ann-marie: again, I would say my mentality was,you know, I'm going to get past this. I know it was going to be painful. I,
again, of course me sitting more than others had, had an opposite effect
because as we know the recovery of the wound and internally gentle exercise. I
noticed that when I would move, you know, the pain would be quite severe.

But in terms ofthat and breastfeeding, no, I'm delighted to say now it was,, it was smooth.
Again, I, I feel very. Very fortunate in that went well, there was only, you
know, maybe week four, a tiny bit of oozing. , where the , the public health
nurse, just a little bit of cleaning and [00:20:00] dressing.

But other thanthat, I remember at three weeks say asking for a sign off to drive. I was like
ready to go. I was very lucky. I said, sure, I use hand controls. You know, I
won't be using my legs. You know, I won't be straining it. So no, again, just
to be, but I can, I just want to say to, to, to, to those of who are listening,
who do have sections, who also have a section and another child and
breastfeeding, I get you.

I can see howthat would be challenging, but also the, to remember that when we're
breastfeeding, you know, we've Less equipment. It's not sterilizing. For me,
this is from my experience, I was able to just to, to, to go with the baby bag
and there was so many other things we all know.

Just be ready togo out the door, the baby would decide to fill a nappy and all of those things
so we did enough of that going on, but I was very fortunate in my healing went
well and breastfeeding, but I, again, [00:21:00] you know, being aware of the
stats and the challenges

but I, it'sgreat to see the huge statistical increase , in breastfeeding moms. But then
again, if you look at the incredible growth of movements, breastfeeding
movements, and even what you're doing and so many other incredible mothers and
women who are leading the way to ensure a test.

This is anatural choice, and that's I just wanted to touch on that because I do actually
think that there is a lot of subliminal discouraging still, because, you know,
I do think it's all connected not to get too political, but with who we are as
a society, our internalized shame as a society. Society, the relationship
between men and women and our roles and the still the continuing sexuality of
our body.

And, and if youlook at media now and young girls, I don't think it's encouraging younger moms
to breastfeed and I think it's really interesting. But the age of women
becoming mothers [00:22:00] is increasing. I suppose that helps to counter, you
know if it was still women in, in early to mid twenties, I, I'd be interested
to see would the stats be as high, a lot of younger women remain so self
conscious of our body.

So I think wein, in our, in our awareness raising, maybe we could do it a little bit more
around, around that to help. Women and particularly younger women, to be
comfortable in that relationship with mothering and feeding and the
desexualization element of it.

Nóra: Yeah. Brilliant. And I think wetalked in this kind of came up as he said, subtle unconscious negative, but I
think there's, that's some pretty unsubtle.

I consciousnegative talk around breastfeeding and discouraging. And one of our other
guests, Anya, who was a twin mother talked. About, I suppose maybe it was
subtle in that it was, you know, Oh, if it doesn't work out, it's okay and
everything. And that is true. You know, so it depends on [00:23:00] what
perspective you're hearing that comment in.

But as a womanwith physical impairment, did you feel that you got more of that? Or did you
feel you got more support?

Ann-marie: Oh yeah, split down that the middle.It depends on who you're talking to. A particular tranche of society with an
attitude. Like, I remember I was part of a policy, an equality policy group,
and I arrived at it, and I was so excited, sharing my news, being pregnant.

I was asked, howdid I get pregnant? Like, That's the extremity of the attitude right through to
people who know me intimately, who knew me, who knew I was just a mother in
waiting and, you know, who were supportive. I, I remember, you know, a lot of
pressure to hand over the baby , gimme the baby.

And when are youfinishing breastfeeding? How long is that go? Sure. You know what? Sure, sure.
Any more than six. You know, that, do you remember that belief that anything
more than six weeks didn't have a nutritional value? Yeah. That, that wasn't so
long [00:24:00] ago. You know, so I, I, I certain. Elements of people in my, my
life, when at six months, seven months, eight months, I breastfed Robert until
he was 14 months, you know and when Robert was walking around and stuff, there
was horror that I was still breastfeeding or he'd jump up and he'd say mama lap
and but I do know that I was very respectful of.

elders who had adiscomfort. I didn't need, or I didn't feel the need to push my right to
breastfeed on others or anything like that. I didn't, you know, there's a time
and a place, you know, in terms of that. So I would be subtle, but
interestingly, because I at times needed support to unzip, pull out the boob, ,
sometimes the boob had to be showed before Robert got, was able to, when he was
latching himself and even having I remember feeling, Oh, when I did concede to
the breastfeeding [00:25:00] sheet, I was like, you know. At, in certain
places, I went, do you know what, why, why make, why create an issue?

But you know me, I, I, I, I love thechallenging attitude anyway. So I, to be honest, I wasn't even listening or
tuning into people's idea that that should I even be a mother, much less
breastfeed. So to be honest, probably more defiant. Yeah. in it. But just a
little side note for people to know, and it is relevant.

The day I camehome from hospital, I had received a letter from the HSE telling me there were
my PA hours were being cut because at the time it sure was at the beginning of
the austerity cuts. And so I suppose the context to Robert's first three months
of his life and my motherhood was campaigning for me and others to retain our
hours.

And, and I, youknow, for a number of years, I couldn't speak about it without getting really [00:26:00]
upset and really emotional because it was so traumatic. And I, it was such a,
and I remember being at a meeting in an organization, a disabled people's
organization. And actually, now that you know, a comment from a a male activist
and a politician.

Was could I nothave left the room while I was breastfeeding? I kind of have to do it on
purpose anyway, to make the point that, you know, this child needs needs me and
I need my peers. So, yeah, that went on for three months. Yeah,

Nóra: that's that's really tough. You know,in that period where you are exhausted after giving birth to a baby and you
need prioritizing the sleep deprivation to have a huge psychological.

Load on you likethat and have to be convening is, must have been really, really hard.

So I've got acouple of more questions before our time runs out.

So maybe whatwas your partner's role? And how did they find it? [00:27:00] Yeah.

Ann-marie: So my partner's role, Derek yeah.Being honest and being a first time dad. What was scary and what I again, you
know, you meet certain people along the way and they're incredible. Our GP at
the time, Mary, and the public health nurse, she was extraordinary.

She came oneday. I don't even know if Derek was there. Not actually fair play. Derek was
there at every appointment. But one day Robert was, he had a lot of wind,
trapped wind, he was crying a lot a few weeks into it. And then, , she was just
so empathic, and she just spoke to Derek. So Derek's really important, you
know, that he has you because he's smelling, and Maria all the time, and he'll
just want to feed, feed, feed, and especially with his digestion issues.

You need torespond, but it went down for a few weeks. So I suppose Derek's role was
pivotal in he was a walking parent. So, you know that's another thing, quick
story. [00:28:00] I was absolutely convinced that Robert would adjust to, to,
to my being low down and not walking. As if he wasn't de human in his own
right.

So of course heneeded the shoulder you know, and to be moved around. And so that was
significant. And of course the changing. And then when I would feed in the
nighttime Derek would take Robert and do those changing. So he had all those
incredible roles as any parent does. Yeah.

Nóra: And finally,

What did youlove about breastfeeding?

Ann-marie: I loved my body. My imperfectdisabled body, doing something, keeping my baby alive.

To me, that wassomething like, I didn't think I carried that, you know, that internalized
oppression. But for my my body to be able to do that as equal on, [00:29:00]
you know, I use that on an equal basis with others. To me, that was incredible.
But just that eye to eye contact with my baby, I was just just so deeply in
love.

And and he lovedit. And it was easy. And just the Endorphins, just chemical my, my, my very
best friend who breastfed and I couldn't have done it without her. You know,
she'd always say, Henry, just like a mini orgasm. But you know, it was just so
beautiful and, and, and intimate and special and, and easy.

Yeah, it was itfor me, it was the autonomy. But this was something that nobody else could do
for, for my baby and, and, and yeah, as well as all the other bonding
experiences and, and but the other humorous thing, you know, the public health
nurse would come over the front and I would say, I can never remember which
breastfeed I started or finished [00:30:00] at the elastic band and I'd say my
left breast was dread because I, Robert's on my right, he'd won five minutes on
it and.

But you know,that babies do choose actually, you know, to feed. And you know, so that, that,
that made me laugh in terms of of, of that. And then I panic at the beginning

Nóra: and then you just go, am I doing itright?

Ann-marie: But so that, that probably is my, mystandout one without a shadow of a doubt, yeah.

Nóra: Brilliant, lovely. And so I supposethen, maybe to finish up, if you were thinking on the days you felt like giving
up, what made you not give up?

Ann-marie: Yeah, I never felt like giving up. Inthe end Robert was about 13 months and I noticed that when, when he started to,
oh yeah, well, when he got little teeth now, there was a couple of nips there
now.

So I had to do,put the finger in and teach him and all of that. That didn't last long
actually. And then so he kind of decided, [00:31:00] To stop breastfeeding, I
think when I reflect back now, I probably you know, there's no regrets, but I
maybe I could have, I was away working and for two nights in a row within a
month.

And I, ofcourse, carry that stupid idea that I was I drying up or was I damaging him
because I was taking it away for two days and then giving it back to him and
all that. But anyway, he confidently it when it was over, it was over. There
was no looking back.

And I just wantto reiterate, I do want to say to all you women, Even if you have a tiny
inclination of breastfeeding, give it 100 percent because remember, you turn up
to breastfeeding with all your existing fears yourself and your self doubts,
and it's often compounded by that subliminal messaging I spoke about, and you
put the two of them together.

But that would be my message to lean into it.To get the support, if you have self doubt, find, find the supporters and to
support you through it. That's been [00:32:00] my, my messaging. It really is a
powerful, beautiful, natural, in most cases, in many cases, not most cases,
thing to do.

And it isdifficult. And I'm supposed to get through the difficult parts because it's not
easy. Okay. Yeah. And once you get through some of those difficult parts, you
get all the joy that you talked about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.
Great. Yeah. And I think that really reflects what, you know, you did.

Nóra: I asked you about the people whomaybe had a lot of negative talk around having a baby, not mind breastfeeding,
and you just let that roll off and you surrounded by yourself with the positive
people, the supportive people and, and, They were your network, so they were
the voices you heard, and yeah. They were the ones you tuned into.

Ann-marie: Yeah just, I want to end on abeautiful thing that my husband said recently. I was in a room and I often joke
with Robert, you know, I said, Robert, you know, I, when, you know, if he's
messing with me or he, and I said, don't forget, I kept you alive for 14
months, nine or [00:33:00] 24 months, nine months and 14 months ago.

And I said,sure, I, Robert, I loved you. before you were even born. And Terry said,
Robert, your mammy loved you before she even met me.

Nóra: That's good. That is. That's lovely.Well, thank you so much Anne Marie for being a guest on Breastfeeding Stories
podcast. It's been absolutely brilliant, really interesting and enlightening
and yet in so many ways.

the same lovelystory that every mother has had on here. So thank you so much for sharing your
voice and telling us your story.

Ann-marie: And Nora, thanks a million. I thinkyou're doing a fantastic job. It's lovely, and I feel privileged to be part of
it.

Thanks amillion.

Nóra: If you've enjoyed the podcast, pleaseshare with a friend, leave a comment on the episode and Spotify, subscribe and
rate the podcast wherever you get your podcasts from. My special thanks to this
week's guest and to Una Neil Anagon at una. ie for the original music. Check
out our website, [00:34:00] www.

breastfeedingstoriespod.com. And if you'd like to share your story, just click on, tell your story and
book in your zoom call.

SHOWNOTES

Breastfeeding Journeys: Anne Marie's Story of Resilience and Love

In this episode of Breastfeeding Stories, host Nora is joined by AnneMarie Flanagan, who shares her unique experience of breastfeeding as a disabled
woman. Anne Marie discusses her determination to breastfeed her son Robert, her
psychological preparation, and the support she received from friends and
family. She also touches on her activism, the challenges she faced including
societal attitudes, and the joys of bonding with her baby through
breastfeeding. This heartfelt conversation emphasizes the importance of support
networks and self-advocacy in successful breastfeeding journeys.

00:00 Introduction to Breastfeeding Stories

00:36 Meet Anne Marie Flanagan

00:50 Breastfeeding as a Disabled Woman

02:19 Preparation and Support for Breastfeeding

05:57 Navigating Healthcare and Support Systems

12:17 Psychological Preparation and Hospital Experience

15:51 Early Breastfeeding Challenges and Solutions

25:27 Balancing Motherhood and Advocacy

26:55 Partner's Role and Final Reflections

33:15 Conclusionand Final Thoughts

Use a text section to describe your values, show more info, summarize a topic, or tell a story. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore.

E08 Aine &Sadhbh

[00:00:00]

Nóra: Welcome to Breastfeeding Stories. Myname is Nora and here we share the highs and lows, the positives, the
negatives, the successes and the challenges of our breastfeeding journeys.

So Áine, thankyou so much for being a guest on Breastfeeding Stories Pod.

You're actuallyour second Áine with a baby side to be on the series, which is pretty amazing.
It's amazing.

Aine: Yeah. I think, like, what are thechances? I don't know.

Nóra: So, maybe to begin, you wouldintroduce yourself and tell us who's in your family.

Aine: Okay, so, as you've said, I'm Áine,I'm married to Kevin.

Today's ourwedding anniversary. Three years. Made it. Three years. And we have a baby
Saive. So Saive will be two in December. So she's like about 28, between a year
and a half and two. So like a bit more than one and a half. So yeah. Yeah. [00:01:00]
Well, happy anniversary

Nóra: and well done because three yearsplus baby.

It's tough.Yeah. But we've made it. So

Aine: I think we need to celebrate.Hopefully. Something will come back from work today, some form of anniversary
gift. We shall see..

Nóra: So when did you start thinking aboutbreastfeeding and what motivated you? Okay,

Aine: so I think, like I've listened toyour other stories and I am probably, I was probably less motivated if I'm
honest.

So, in the, youknow, you're pregnant and you're thinking about things probably closer to the,
Definitely after halfway. And I think in my head I had thought of breastfeeding
as, this is how I kind of describe it to myself. It's going to add more stress to
an already stressful situation. Why would I put myself in that situation and
make it more difficult?

Basically, itwas my initial thinking. So then I started, you know, they ask you at all your
appointments and that kind of thing. So it definitely started coming up in my
mind and I did start thinking about it. And my sister is a dietitian and she
definitely would [00:02:00] be 100 percent have been pushing for me to do it,
not pushing for me to do it, encouraging me to do it is how I should say it.

And I remembergoing to her and saying, look, we're What is the story? Like, what? Give me the
basics. I will be honest, I knew very little about actually how it works. So,
she doesn't have kids, but she was able to tell me, I suppose, what she would
tell a patient or whatever. And it definitely planted a seed in my mind, and I
decided then, look, I'll give it a go.

I wasn't I haveto do this. I was, I'll give it a go and see. And as the day kind of came
closer and closer, I was like, well, if I want to, If I want to be successful
from the research I had done, I needed to do a bit of prep like so I Did the
antenatal or there's a breastfeeding class in the hospital?

So I had donethat but it was a virtual thing and I just found it really difficult to
Actually see myself doing it off the back of that class So I got in touch with
someone a lactation consultant kind of a local lactation consultant This is
probably the week before I was due like so it was kind of a little bit fine but
met with her and And I just found it great.

Like that was,it was just, to me, that was kind of the turning point of, I [00:03:00] think I
kind of want to do this too. I'm doing this, like, I'm going to do this. So she
came to my house and we did an hour and a half, two hours of just chatting. And
like, it's very hard. You know yourself, it's very hard when you haven't done
it before and there's someone who's telling you about it, but you don't, it's
no baby.

And you just arelike, it's all kind of, this should happen and this might happen. And if this
happens, you don't know what's going to happen for you. So I probably had to
start thinking about it. Probably was more sceptical early on and by the time
Saibh arrived I kind of was, no I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna give it
a go and give it a good go and not give up basically if it's too hard initially
so I linked in with her and then I think when Saibh was born I was texting her
and she was great, like she was really really good, really really helpful and I
think that is kind of what got me started and I think if you don't start, you
know, if the start is really difficult, you're less likely to keep going.

So for me,that's what got me started. It's having [00:04:00] someone to ask, like, if
someone says, I've walked, I don't like what, why is this happening? And this
is giving you practical advice. And also it's so easy to say, to look back now
and think, of course it was going to work out, but someone said it wouldn't
work out.

If I keep going,it will work out. And you know, it obviously did in the end. So sorry, it's
probably answering a couple of questions, but that's when I started thinking
about it.

Nóra: That's brilliant. And so just leadingon from that, that, so where did you find the lactation consultant's number?
Did you just Google it?

Just Googled

Aine: it. Yeah, and she was based in Gort.Gort, so not too far. She did travel, I think probably as far as she would
travel. So

I don't

know if I, Ifeel like maybe I reached out to one or two, she came back to me. And just, I
knew, you know, I had a conversation with her, I just kind of knew as soon as I
spoke to her, like, okay, no, you're my kind of lady, like, yeah, let's go with
this.

And I paid forit. It was, it was pricey. It was definitely a pricey consultation, but now I
got more than my money's worth of it, you know?

Nóra: Yeah, worthwhile investment by thesounds of it,

so you paid forthis privately, you sought it out [00:05:00] privately. And then when she came,
like, what kind of things did she talk to you about?

Nóra: Did she, like, did she make sure youget your boobs out? Did she, you know,

Aine: what happened? No, she, so she didbring a doll. So she had a doll, kinda a life size. And she just showed me
different positions and how, you know, and also talked a lot about at the
start. Okay. And you know yourself at the start when the baby is feeding,
feeding, feeding, and you think there's something wrong and not getting enough,
like, like she had told me all this stuff.

And while itdidn't make sense to me at the time, I do remember them being in the hospital.
I'm like, Oh, she did say this would happen. Okay. So this is okay. And then we
got a text from like, this is happening to them. That's okay. That's okay. I
did get like a did come around to me in the hospital. I just found having kind
of a one to one person, and I think we'll get on to what happens subsequently,
like with, say, the public health, the local lactation consultant here, I think
in the hospital they're just so busy and you just, you need it, you need help
and you need kind of one on one help.

They're so busyand don't have time to sit with you and, you know, [00:06:00] spend ages with
you. And I just found having someone kind of outside of that, outside of the
hospital, that was my own person and my own thing. That's what really helped
me. And I definitely had a couple of conversations. I ended up in hospital for
like five days.

So I'd say Ispoke to her probably every day. And it was more of the encouragement as well.
And like to say that that's normal, that's normal, keep going. She was big
advocate of, you know, like cabbage leaves in the freezer. Okay. Like, my
freezer was full of cabbage leaves from when I got home. Or, or nappies is the
other thing, like to fill a nappy with water.

So like, for me,and I think loads of people can just go into it and see, we'll see how it goes.
But I just like to have a bit of control over what's going to happen. So I
think for me, it just suited me to meet her beforehand, feel a little bit armed
with a little bit of information. And it did, it paid off on the other side.

Nóra: Yeah. Brilliant. Yeah, it makes a lotof sense, you know, we prepare so much for birth, and we do a lot of, you know,
we seek help, we prepare, we buy X, Y, and Z, because we know that it's going
to [00:07:00] happen or might happen, and so it's great if you can be prepared
for breastfeeding as well. And so with that, kind of, You said you had cabbage
leaves in the freezer and some nappies in the freezer as well for engorgement
and things like that.

Anything elsethat you bought or prepared in advance of going to the hospital or did you do
any colostrum harvesting, any of those kind of things?

Aine: I didn't do colostrum harvesting. Idid get the kit because there was a kit in the hospital I remember, probably on
the back of that that hospital breastfeeding class, I got one.

I don't evenknow if I tried to do it, if I'm honest, I don't think I did. I did buy a
hacker. And someone had told me about the silver cups, actually my hairdresser
who breastfed, she told me about silver. And I, again, I remember thinking, oh,
it's like 50, do I want to buy these? And I remember her saying, of all the
shit you buy, like, buy those.

So I did havethose. And I think I brought them to the hospital with me. That was probably as
much as I bought, if I'm honest, because I didn't know it would work out,
wouldn't it? I didn't go buy the pump because I just had no idea. So I bought
those two things so, I suppose the first few days [00:08:00] were rough and,
you know, the feeding was going okay, but it was quite painful.

I remember itjust being really painful. And there was a woman in the bed beside me who, I
think it was her third or fourth child, she came over to me at one stage and
basically was like, look, I don't want to, I don't mean to be rude or in any
way interrupt you, but get nipple chills. I'm telling you now, from what you've
been telling the nurse, and she could obviously overhear, this.

And it.

Don't reallypromote them in the hospital, but she said get these if something allowed me
because it was really it was really painful by day two or three like it has
started to get really painful and every fee was just I described it like being
stabbed with a knife, like it felt very painful and when I was being told by
the kind of nurses were like, if that's normal and it'll pass, but it just
really hard to want to keep going so I remember sending my husband out to buy
nipple shields.

He hadn't a cluewhat he was looking for. He didn't really know where he was going, but he, I
literally wrote on a piece of paper and he went to a couple of chemists and he
came back with them. So that for me as well, Like it was a game changer because
I could see, I [00:09:00] knew it was normal and I knew it would potentially
would pass, but God, it was just painful.

Like every feedwas like, Oh, I really, you know, it was painful. So once I got those, it
really helped. Like, I think, you know, you're just, your boobs are just not
prepared for this. Obviously it's going to be painful. And the more feeds that
happen, the more pain it's, it doesn't get a chance to heal. So.

Nipple heelswere a savior. They were annoying as hell in that. They got lost and you to
sterilize 'em constantly and all those things. But it was literally as a woman
in the bed next to me, told me about them. And then from there, from probably
from about day four or five when I started using them, it was great.

And there was nopain. It was a pain in the earth. Had to just have them and clean them and all
those things and fell on the floor. But they were something else that I ended
up buying. Hadn't bought in advance, but I would. Possibly buy something to buy
them in advance because they're great. And I don't know why, they're cheap,
they're so cheap.

Like, I justdon't know why they're not given out in hospitals, or [00:10:00] like, No nurse
had told me about them, and then when I kind of said, Oh, I'm going to go with
these, they were kind of like, Oh, I don't know if you should use them. And at
that stage I had used them, and I was like, Oh no, I'm going to have to keep
using these because they're amazing.

Yeah. Yeah, Idon't, I don't really know why. It's funny isn't it? Yeah, I was just

Nóra: talking to my friend about it. Like,they say that because the baby isn't in contact with the nipple and the skin
directly that it reduces your, your, your Milk supply. I'm just so unconvinced.
And like, if it's a choice of, well, I'm not going to breastfeed my baby or I
am, then nipple shoes is the way to go.

You know, like.

Aine: Definitely. Definitely. Like, and Iknow subsequently, like speaking to you and other people in the breastfeeding
group, like they were a lifesaver. And I just, you know, you're in so much pain
anyway, after having a baby, like the additional pain, you're like. Really, do
I, do I, is this what I really have to go through?

Yeah, where ifthere's a solution and it's kind of a short term, like you don't use them
forevermore, but like, absolutely, yeah, short term solution, get you out to
the side and then off you go. [00:11:00] So yeah, there was something we ended
up and probably bought so many sets of, you know, for finishes to have them and
have a sterilized set and like, they're flimsy enough, like, but great.

I thought theywere, I thought they were lifesavers. So between silver cups and to me are the
two. And the hackad probably is, it probably, everybody probably doesn't need
it, but like I did use the hackad a good bit, particularly for my feeds and
stuff. So those three things, like you don't need much, maybe a good
breastfeeding pillow, like is another thing, but like, yeah, you definitely
don't need much compared to bottle feeding and like, you know, bottles and
sterilizing all that kind of stuff.

It is a lot moreminimal if you can just get over, The first couple of weeks, I think.

Nóra: Okay, yeah. And then, I suppose, justtaking one step back maybe you talked about your motivation. So on a scale of
one to ten where would you say, I know that maybe the week before it ramped up,
where would you say throughout your pregnancy you felt your motivation to
breastfeed was?

Aine: If I'm honest, like towards the end,probably around a seven, eight, like that's, that's all I ever was like, I just
didn't know, I knew that [00:12:00] I could see the benefits like a hundred
percent. You can see the benefits, but if I'm on it, the horror stories
together with the benefits, you're like, Oh Lord. Okay. So it's really good,
but also X, Y, and Z might happen.

Whereas you feltwith bottle feeding, it's just more straightforward. It's easier. And also
someone else can do it. Like your husband can do it. You can have. Asleep, you
can have, you know, a couple of hours rest. That was probably another thing
that I worried about a bit, like, if I'm breastfeeding, I'm the only one who
could do this.

So, yeah, itprobably was a 7 or an 8 going into it. I think once I got going on the other
side, once it kind of, everything settled down and it was working, I was like,
it's amazing, like, it's magical. It's, it is all the things that people say it
is. But there is, you know, a bit of work to it, which I don't know because
I've never, say, bottled had a baby, but I would say it's not the same, you
know, it's a little bit more work, but then it's so easy and you can leave the
house and all you need to bring it up and like, you know, once you get there,
it is, it's quite easy.

Great. Like likeanyone who is kind of like me, I know like a lot [00:13:00] of people who've
been on the podcast are tens and they really want to do it. I wasn't there, but
I did get there on the other side. Like, so it's kind of okay to not be a
hundred percent. You have to do this. You can give it a go and just stick with
it.

I woulddefinitely say to anyone that if you get to the six week mark and just get six
weeks, six weeks seems like an eternity when you're in pain at start. Yeah. If
you get the six weeks, it's like, Oh wow, this is just. So convenient, so
handy, makes my life so much easier. So it's kind of just putting in The hard
work at

Nóra: the beginning.

Yeah, and thesix weeks I suppose is like the reason you say that is because baby, when
baby's born, like they're so sleepy and they're so weak. They have no muscles,
but by six weeks, they have gained a bit of weight, they've developed better
suck. So, what's really hard at the beginning, where they don't know how to
breastfeed they have now over six weeks of a lot of feeding learned, and
they're better at supporting their neck.

So, you've alsolearned tips and tricks. They've gotten stronger. You've also learned, yeah. So
they [00:14:00] tend to And you feel better in yourself. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Aine: Everything kind of comes together. Ifelt for me at that stage, like you feel a bit better, you know, you're not
back to yourself in any way, but you're getting there a little bit like that
baby's a bit stronger.

You've just beendoing it, you know, six weeks behind you of practice, but you can't get to six
weeks until you do the six weeks. And those are the tough six weeks. And there
were definitely multiple times in those six weeks that I'm like, I'm not doing this
anymore. This is too hard. It's painful. You're also so tired.

And you know,they're up every three hours at my time. And like, you are the only one who can
do it in saying that, like my husband was up with me all the time. Like, it's
not like he was having a great night's sleep when I was up. So like, it's just,
it's a hard six weeks. But definitely after that, and I suppose we'll get to
it, but like the support is there.

Well, I don'tknow that it's there, but in NS it's there with the lactation consultant and
the breastfeeding group. And that definitely kept me going in those really
tough six weeks, the meeting, the lactation consultant, like she came to the [00:15:00]
house and just like that, having one to one time with someone who knows what
they're doing and is like, you're doing a great job and a little bit of.

Supportivemotivation goes so far. And then her breastfeeding group on a Thursday for me
was like a lifeline, like not just for feeding, but for meeting people and
getting out of the house. And I definitely feel in those first weeks, it kept
me going. Cause I was like, but I have the group, I have the group on Thursday.

So it's hardknowledge. This isn't right now. I'll go to the group and there'll be other
people who have the same problem as they are different or worse problems. So
yeah, doing it in isolation. It's totally possible. It's just, it's tough. So
if there's support out there in any shape or form, I would just be
wholeheartedly go for it, take it, go to the group, meet the people.

So I'd say,yeah, the first six weeks really hard, but leaned on what was there. And then
once you're at that, the other side of that, I'm not saying it's easy. It's
not, but it's definitely, you, you feel [00:16:00] like, okay, this is doable.
I can do this.

Nóra: And go back to that support that shegot, so you had your private lactation consultant before the birth and you were
still in contact with her, then in the hospital, a lactation consultant did
come around, and then how did you engage with your local support when you got
home from hospital, did the hospital encourage you to link in with the
breastfeeding support in your area, or how did you end up there?

Aine: I think it was a public health nurse,so she would have come that first week. So she came, went through everything
and, you know, I abreast her bottle feeding. And as soon as she heard that, I
had known, I'd known there was a lactation consultant prior to having this eye.
I just knew of her and I knew her name.

I had nevergone, I had attended to do that, but it didn't work out. So I'd known she was
around, but yeah, it was, it was probably felt nurse. I think she came whatever
day she came. I'm nearly sure I got a call that afternoon or that evening from
from the lactation consultant and say, I'll come tomorrow.

So, and that was

Aine: a week before Christmas possibly,like, you know, it was December time. So she came [00:17:00] the next day. It
was a really icy day. Like she had come quite a distance, but anyway, she came
and she came in and it was just like, You know, you were struggling and then
there was this person, kind of like this angel here, who just, you know, she
just showed you things.

I remember sheshowed me, like, side lying position,

which

Aine: I know doesn't work for everyone, butit just really worked for me. And I remember thinking, I can't, but I can't do
this, it's too dangerous to be this way. And she was like, no, it's fine. She
literally came up to my bed in my room and showed me. She was brilliant.

She really was,like, just exactly what you needed. It was practical and not, like, you know,
overly emotional, I suppose, but yeah, really, really, really helpful. I
thought, and then obviously she told me about the group and the group was
meeting maybe two or three days later. So I couldn't drive at the time, but I
remember getting, Kevin dropped me in and, and that group, like, there's just
so much goodness and a wealth of knowledge and support and comfort and a bit of
company as well.

So I remember [00:18:00]going to that group the first day and thinking, You know, you're obviously
terrified, you're walking in, you don't know anyone, but it didn't matter.
Like, everyone was lovely, meeting the girl that we are still obviously friends
with on that first day, and just thinking, okay, you know, this is, this is
something, and you can, you think as well, I'm on maternity leave, this is
something that will keep me going.

So betweengovernment and going to the group, like, It was great support and it was
needed. And I think I just feel, feel bad for people who don't have that in
their community or for people who don't breastfeed and can't avail of that
service. But it's a great, it's a great service and definitely, yeah, kept me
going.

Nóra: And maybe flicking back then, you hadmentioned that, I suppose, Before you had the baby, you'd heard a lot of horror
stories, so I suppose maybe go back to like your own family and friends. Did
you know a lot of people who had breastfed, or, you know, where were those
horror stories coming from, or what was the story there?

You know, we allhear them, [00:19:00] nothing surprising here.

Aine: Yeah, I think you do, and it's a pitybecause I feel like you almost hear more about this. the bad stories and the
good stuff, you know, I suppose it depends on where you're looking, but even if
you, you know, you Google it and you're Googling stories, like there's, there's
some bad things that happen.

There's equallysome bad things that happen. You don't breastfeed, but they happen anyway. So I
had had a good few friends, a few friends who had breastfed for quite recently
and for a while, and you know, they had kept it going for six or nine months. So
I absolutely, I remember texting each of them different problems and what you
do here and what you do here.

And like thatagain is invaluable because you just don't. that person has been through this
and has come out the other side and it has worked out for them. So I had a few
friends, like I, I would say of all the friends I'd had who had had babies,
maybe half had breastfed. Maybe half hadn't so the ones who had the like all
were really helpful and anytime you ask something You know yourself if someone
asks you something now You would just want to give them all the information and
all the stuff if you had something to give so [00:20:00] Yeah, I definitely had
leaned on those as well.

I feel like Ihave so much support when I'm thinking about it between lactation consultants
and friends But that's what you need like as with anything you're doing for the
first time It doesn't matter what it is, like if you know someone who's done it
before You Absolutely. Like they're absolute knowledge, wealth of information
for you.

So yeah, I'vehad a few friends, I would say more, the friends I'd had to were based in
Belfast and they just, I suppose I felt the support that they had got was
probably better than people I've known down here in the South who had breastfed
or whatever. So even one of the girls had sent me a booklet that she had got
from her, from the NHS.

I remember acouple of weeks in advance, I had been texting her and she sent me this book
and even. Even that was helpful just to, you know, have a book and see. But
yeah, I absolutely played them on questions as well for a good while. But it
was great. Yeah, I think people are delighted, you know, to help. If they've
done it and they can help.

I think peopleare delighted to help. [00:21:00] So yeah, I did. I got good help from a good
few people

Nóra: and then. So you mentioned some ofyour challenges. So one of your challenges was certainly the pain, nipple pain
at the very beginning nothing to do with latch, just normal nipple pain because
you haven't had a baby on your nipple before.

Yeah. I thinkthat was it. And like, you know,

Aine: in the hospital, I do remember themsaying, and, oh, is the latch right, and like repositioning and the latch was
always fine. Luckily, like I know that that's not always the case, but. We were
really lucky looking back like this, like the latch was fine. Okay, there was a
bit of initial pain that really did ease off in the first week.

You were goingwith the silver cups and the never shield constantly, like, but absolutely that
helped. I don't think I had, I didn't have many other challenges in terms of
it. I never got mastitis, never got blocked up, like any of those things that I
really worried about a lot in advance never happened, you know, and I wouldn't
have said I did anything In particular, to avoid it, I just was lucky and it
didn't [00:22:00] happen for me.

We did have atone stage, like, I think it's called a milk strike or something where she just
wouldn't feed for a day. I remember freaking out about that thinking, you know,
what's going to happen? But linking in with the lactation consultant and her
giving me advice on what to do. But luckily, no, I never had any of the awful
horror stories that I'd read before.

I never, none ofthose ever happened to me. So, you know, like you're reading them thinking
worst case scenario, but just cause you read about them doesn't mean they're
going to happen to you. No teeth. I think when she started getting teeth that
got a bit challenging for a while, but again, I remember going to the group,
talking about it with other people, getting a couple of tips on what to do and
they worked, you know, so the group was great in so many ways.

like company andsomething to do, but also practically like people have been through this.
People had older kids, people with younger kids,

just be able toshare the knowledge. Cause no matter what problem you went with, someone had
dealt with it at some stage. They were like, Oh, great. So no, I, I [00:23:00]
think we were really lucky.

And it's funny, you do, you think about allthe bad things that can happen. It didn't happen. You know, so it was a lot of
wasted worry there beforehand. Yeah.

Nóra: And then so the successes, youmentioned definitely the ease of it all in terms of like getting out of the
house and stuff like that.

You know, whatdid you love about breastfeeding?

Aine: I did love the ease of it. The, youknow, you weren't sterilizing bottles and making up a formula. Like that was
lovely. And I suppose when you don't have any liquidity, you don't know how
much work that is. And, you know, until you have to do it and, you know, I did
end up making a bottle further down the line.

Like, God, thisis awful effort. So the ease of it, and there is a lovely bonding part to it,
like that probably is underrated a little bit. I think that was lovely. Like,
and even at night, you know, like you're waking up in the night, drinking up
out of bed and going downstairs and making the bottle, you just were literally
rolling over and taking up the baby, feeding her, putting her down.

I think it wasall knowing that she was. She was getting the best possible [00:24:00] thing
you could give her. Like she never got sick in those first, probably the first
year before she went to college, like she never actually was sick with any, and
I don't know if that's down to breastfeeding or not, but like, I felt I took
that as a win.

It's like, okay,I'll take that one. So, yeah, I did think there were so many nice parts about
it. I will admit I was probably nervous of breastfeeding in public. Like
initially, you know, it was fine to do it at home and even when you had
visitors, I felt probably a little bit awkward and I'm feeling like I keep
going back to the group, but like going to the group and doing it there in a
really safe place where everyone was doing it kind of gave me a little bit of
confidence.

I thought if Ican do it there, I can do it in a cafe or I can do it. So that probably took me
a while to just get comfortable with being in public and now I think it's I'm
almost embarrassed to think I was nervous of it, but at the time, like I hadn't
done it before, and, you know, it just felt like people were looking at you,
but nobody's looking at you, and if they are looking at you, they're probably
saying, I loved that, maybe, like, good for her.

So, yeah,probably something, [00:25:00] just for myself, I struggled with a bit, I
probably didn't go out as much. At the start I'd be thinking, I'll just stay in
and feed and go for a walk or meet someone for coffee. But something that, you
know, you build up over time. Now I would have no problem whatsoever doing it.

But it took alittle bit of time and definitely going to the group, seeing everyone else.
You're like, okay, this is fine. This is the most normal, natural thing in the
world. Why am I worried about this? So yeah, the successes were definitely
outweighed any of the bad stuff. Yeah. And it wasn't even bad stuff, it was
just, like, challenging stuff at the start.

Nóra: And then, thinking about Kevin'srole, how did he find the breastfeeding and what was his role in the whole
journey?

Aine: I actually asked him this when I gotyour list of questions, I was like, What do you think your role was? And he was
like, he was the chief. cook and cleaner and like, God love him. He did do
absolutely everything else in the house.

He was the chiefnipple shield sterilizer also. So those, you know, those [00:26:00] initial
weeks, I feel like I just sat on the couch and fed baby. I really, really
didn't do anything else.

Nóra: That is what you have to do. You werelike, this is now my full time job. Job. I sit on the couch and feed the baby.

And it justtakes that time to get it

Aine: established. But it's really hard toaccept, to be honest, this is what I do. You go from being a busy person with a
job and all those things to just, I'm going to sit and let the house go to shit
basically, you know, like mess and clothes and whatever else. But just, yeah.

Except itprobably definitely took a few weeks to accept that also, but he did everything
else he did. Like, even when we got home from the hospital, the house was,
groceries were in, he literally had the fire lit. Like no, he was great in
every other way. I feel a little bit, you know, breastfeeding. It doesn't
exclude the dad, but you know, there is an element of he can't do certain
things, you know, only you can do.

I think after afew weeks, like he used to, like I'd feed her and leave her downstairs with him
and I would get to go to bed for a few hours. He's, You know, or like any of
the night feeds he was up, he would change her, yeah, you know, to clothes or
whatever, he'd do all that, bring [00:27:00] her back to me, so he absolutely
was actively involved in every way, literally, other than the feeding.

He'd even burpher, you know, like, he'd feed, pass her, pass her over. Yeah, and so when Don,
like, excuse me, I would obviously be doing the feeds, but almost, he would
sleep in with her. Like, I'd feed her, he'd sleep in with her. Yeah. Till the
next feed was due, like, she might be a bit unsettled and he'd settle her at
night time.

So, yeah, Iwould say, other than the breastfeeding, he did everything else that he could
have done, or, like, took her out for a walk and let her have a shower. Those
small things, but things that you really, really need. We did try and introduce
a bottle. The bottle thing was funny because she probably would have got one or
two bottles of, the little bottles of formula in the hospital initially, but
then she just wouldn't take a bottle.

So, like, whenwe got home. You just assume they'll take a bottle. So there probably was
nights where he's, you know, the cluster feeding was happening, and you're
like, God, she must be hungry, but she just never really took a bottle. Until
maybe, I don't know, like six months, I [00:28:00] suppose, and you were trying
all these different bottles, and like, I don't feel like he missed out, but it
is something that he didn't get to do because I was breastfeeding.

But he never wassad about that, or, you know, it was, yeah, fine, he did. There's enough work
for everybody, I feel. That's a good way of looking at it, yeah. There is. And
there's enough cuddles as well to go around. Like, you know, it's lovely you
are holding the baby, but then to just, you know, acknowledge that, okay, I've
been holding the baby now for five hours, maybe you should, so, yeah.

And he wouldhave, like, encouraged it, When I decided I was doing it before she was born
like absolutely encouraged it but not Pushed it in any way or like you have to
do this You said you're going to do you have to do this and definitely would
have been great on the days when I said It's too hard. I don't want to do it He
would have reminded me the reasons I wanted to do it in the first place and
just said get through today I'll see you tomorrow.

Don't quit todaybecause you're having a bad day like Wait till tomorrow and then ultimately by
tomorrow you'll be like, oh, that's fine again Like so like was a great
support. Definitely. I probably didn't get enough credit [00:29:00] really at
the time. But yeah, it really was Great, and I had to do nothing else and drove
me around the place for those first six weeks of one drive So yeah, kudos to
Kev

Nóra: And so I suppose that And it bringsus on to our two final questions. On the days you felt like giving up, what
made you not give up? So I suppose that support system that you had from Kevin,
Yeah, but from everyone, like

Aine: from, like, the group, the friends Imet in the group Absolutely, like, anyone I knew who had breastfed previously,
like, there was a lot of support So it was, and it probably was the days you
leaned on it most was just like, oh, I'm so tired And.

You know, therewas days definitely that if I wasn't breastfeeding, you just had this in your
head, you'd get an amazing sleep. You'd sleep all night if you weren't
breastfeeding, which isn't true. You know, like, you know, not going to happen
either. So, yeah, those days. And it was probably more tiredness than anything
else.

You just weretired and you just wanted to sleep. And you put it down to breastfeeding. So,
yeah, on, on those days, it definitely was. Looking at how well she was doing
and [00:30:00] she was absolutely thriving that was completely down to you. So,
like, that is a great motivator as well. I remember like our weekly weigh ins
we used to be weighing them at the breastfeeding group and you'd see the weight
go up a little bit.

You'd just be sodelighted. So, like, that was real encouragement and motivation and the group.
I will say the group motivated me because I knew week to week I had somewhere
to go. . And I'm not saying you couldn't go if you weren't breastfeeding, but
it was a breastfeeding group, so like, you know.

, like itdefinitely kept me going on, on hard days. It did keep me going. Like, I'll
have the group now on a Thursday, so if I get to Thursday it will be fine. It
always was. But yes, we talked about the group loads and obviously we met in
the group. And another girl in the group, like. It's just a lifeline for, you
know, and I know some people who thought of going into a group of women who
they don't know, like would fill them with dread.

It's just notlike that at all. It is just such a nice place where sometimes there's bums,
there's tea, someone makes you tea, like they bring it to you. Like it's, it's
really fabulous. And I hope it keeps going for a long time. I think it will. [00:31:00]
I just, you know, it would be nice if there was a similar group or just a group
for everyone, you know, it wasn't just a breastfeeding group.

Probably when Ilook back at my breastfeeding journey, that stands out to me as one of the
nicest things, that you just got to go meet other people, meet other small
babies, and then, you know, off the back of that, develop friendships and force
your babies to be friends, even though, even when they don't want to be,

okay,

Nóra: so, finally, any tips, tricks oradvice that you'd have for a woman who hasn't breastfed yet? Thanks.

Aine: I definitely would say like where Iwas before and not overly motivated to do it, it would just be to give it a go.
Like you don't have, and you don't have to do it forever.

You don't haveto, if you've got a week, if you've got one day of feeding, that's one day more
than zero. If you've got a week, if you've got a month and to not put loads of
pressure on yourself, you have to do it and it has to work out. Like if it
doesn't work out, that's okay. But I would say give it a go.

And like, likethat I wasn't someone who was a have to do this. And I breastfed exclusively
for six months, [00:32:00] probably up to nine months, like, and it's amazing
the things you can do, even when it's hard, like, you can still do it. I don't
know, I feel like it gets a bad rep, breastfeeding, for different reasons, and
it's a really controversial topic, and you don't want to offend anyone, but I
think just give it a go, and don't put too much pressure on yourself, and see
where it goes.

And don't spenda fortune on all this stuff. It's funny, you buy all this lovely baby stuff and
the baby grows, like, if it's working out, absolutely buy yourself some nice
things and some nice pyjamas or , you know, just something nice for yourself.
But yeah, don't feel like, I don't feel like if it doesn't work out for any
reason that you feel down in any way because you haven't watched Mike, your
baby's fine.

I think I've seen a meme so many times aboutlike. You know, child that's breastfed and child that isn't, and they both end
up eating McDonald's, you know, when they're five, so. . It's fine, but
definitely give it a go, and you might be surprised at how well it goes.

Nóra: Brilliant, yeah, yeah, absolutely.It's great to hear those stories of, Babies who didn't have any [00:33:00]
particular challenges in the breastfeeding. You know, , nothing insurmountable.
There, like anything, like birth stories often I think you hear a lot of the
birth trauma. But there are lots of absolutely brilliant, lovely, chill births.

I'd do it againin a heartbeat. Yeah, it was handy. Whereas then my breastfeeding journey was
quite challenging, you know, like it's just, yeah. Yeah, you don't know
beforehand. Yeah,

Aine: so give it a go. Yeah, you have verylittle control over how it goes, but just try, just definitely if you're, even
if you're a one on the one to ten scale, just give it a go and just see how,

I'd say if youdo it for a week, if you do it for a day, at least you've given it a go. And
like, I was surprised. I would say how easy it turned out to be. Okay,
initially it was a little bit challenging, but like, it's, it's not the horror
stories that you may have heard. They more than likely won't happen to you.

Nóra: Well, thank you so much forparticipating and sharing your story today on Best Feeding Stories Pod, [00:34:00]
Áine. I'm really grateful.

If you'veenjoyed the podcast, please share with a friend, leave a comment on the episode
and Spotify, subscribe and rate the podcast wherever you get your podcasts
from. My special thanks to this week's guest and to Una Neil Anagon at una. ie
for the original music. Check out our website, www.

breastfeedingstoriespod.com. And if you'd like to share your story, just click on, tell your story and
book in your zoom call.

Áine's Breastfeeding Journey: Challenges, Triumphs, and EssentialSupport

In this episode of Breastfeeding Stories, host Nora welcomes Áine, whoshares her journey with her baby Sadhbh. Áine delves into her initial
hesitation, the crucial support she received from her sister, a lactation
consultant, and her husband, Kevin, as well as insights from a local
breastfeeding group. She discusses the practical aspects, like the use of
nipple shields and silver cups, and highlights both the difficulties and
rewards of breastfeeding. Áine emphasizes the importance of giving
breastfeeding a try and utilizing support networks to navigate the early
challenges.

00:00 Introduction to Breastfeeding Stories

00:38 Meet Áine and Her Family

01:15 Initial Thoughts on Breastfeeding

02:24 Preparing for Breastfeeding

03:24 Early Challenges and Support

05:04 Practical Tips and Tools

06:49 The Importance of Support Groups

11:36 Overcoming Initial Hurdles

25:35 Kevin's Role in the Journey

31:21 Final Thoughts and Advice

33:54Conclusion and Podcast Outro

Use a text section to describe your values, show more info, summarize a topic, or tell a story. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore.

S01E10 Flick & Fi and Jasper & Georgie

Nora: [00:00:00] Welcome to BreastfeedingStories. My name is Nora and here we share the highs and lows, the positives,
the negatives, the successes and the challenges of our breastfeeding
journeys.

Okay, so welcomethis morning. Thank you so much for being guests on Breastfeeding Stories
podcast. So this is our first episode where we have two guests two lovely
sisters, and who are both going to tell their breastfeeding stories at the same
time, which is exciting. So maybe to begin with we start with the big sister
and you can start by introducing Yourself, and who's in your family, and then
we'll move on to Little Sister.

Flick: Okay, thanks Nora. Yeah, my name'sFlick. I live near Cardiff for my husband Noam and my little boy Jasper, who is
23 months [00:01:00] old.

Fi: And I am Fi I am flicks youngersister by three and a half years. I live in Cheshire with my husband Andy, and
our daughter Georgie, who's also 23 months old, five days younger than little
Jasper.

Nora: That's so cute. That is so lovely.Okay. So then to ask both of you when did you start thinking about
breastfeeding? So, you know, was it way before pregnancy? Was it around
pregnancy? Maybe you go first, Flick.

Flick: Okay, so my experience, so I'mtrained as a dietitian, so I think breastfeeding's probably been something I've
thought about a lot over the years and always assumed that I would do if I had
the chance to become a mother.

But then I alsothink in my social circles and the environment I was in, it was very much the
norm in terms of how , if I were to care for a child, how I would feed that
child. So I think we were, Fia and I are one of four children, so we were all
breastfed. We've seen our sister in law's breastfeeds.

I've seen someof my friends and [00:02:00] I guess a lot of close associates breastfeed to
various different extents. And I guess those role models have always been
relatively positive about their breastfeeding journey. So that's probably
influenced my desire to which I'd say was pretty high. When I found out I was

pregnant.

So, okay, so,obviously you had family role models and within, like, your joint community,
Fi, would you say that, like, your friends are a few years younger?

Was it the samething that most of the rest of you do? Yeah, so,

Fi: so for me, perhaps not quite so muchfrom my immediate social circle, I was 29 when I found out I was pregnant. None
of my none of my close people I'd refer to as close friends. I had had a child
at that point, but again, I suppose I had the family context, the same family
context that Flick describes.

I think my, Iwork in health service and I'd actually. Just before I became pregnant I'd had
to do a kind of UN breastfeeding initiative training thing as part of my
[00:03:00] work and that had really kind of brought it to the fore, the huge
benefits that it could have for mom and for baby and I think that maybe planted
the seed and for me, Yeah, quite quite early on.

I didn't thinkabout it more seriously until later on in pregnancy, probably well into the
third trimester YouTube busy

Flick: throwing up boss

Fi: Yeah, I was being sick a lot and mybody felt like it was not coping well with pregnancy. So I found it quite
difficult to imagine that I could be like a productive woman in some respects
because I might not, you know, the nausea and vomiting of pregnancy for me was
a huge feature.

So I didn't feelthat nourished the whole time. So I wondered if I could naturally nourish a
little human after that experience. That kid,

turns out.

Nora: That's so interesting, I never, Ididn't have that much nausea, so it didn't occur to me that like, yeah, that,
that, if you're so sick in the pregnancy, you know, it's going to have an
impact on how much energy you have coming into the birth in the early
[00:04:00] stages, which is such a key time for breastfeeding.

So on a scale ofone to ten Phee, where would you say you were with kind of your motivation to
breastfeed?

Fi: I'd say probably eight. Eight.

Nora: Cool. And how about you,

Flick: Flick? Probably a nine or ten. Iactually discussed this at my antenatal group in terms of it being a risk that
I was so sort of motivated if I wasn't able to do it, then how would I cope
with that?

Because I thinkthat was something that I was really passionate about.

Nora: Yeah. So, then you both mentionedthat you'd had some formal training through your careers in breastfeeding. Did
you do any other training or was any other training provided to you guys? So,
Fi you're, you were based in England for your pregnancy, is that correct?

Fi: So, yeah, I was living in England,working in Wales though, so within a Welsh NHS context.

Nora: Okay, and then But your, yourantenatal care was to the English NHS. It was, yeah. And then Flick, yours was
to Welsh [00:05:00] NHS. So that's quite cool. So did you guys get any
antenatal breastfeeding training provided to you?

Or did you goand seek out training elsewhere? Or did you ask friends formally, informally?
So yeah. Yeah.

Fi: You

go.

Fi: I'll go. So I my midwife is verysupportive. Actually, she talked about her breastfeeding journey. When I
talked, started talking about it, she also took the pressure off in terms of
saying, you know, you can decide when the baby's born.

It doesn'tmatter what you've expressed previously. there was no pressure, but there was
also quite a positive culture in the hospital that I delivered in. About
breastfeeding. I felt as soon as I arrived, they kind of acknowledged that that
was something that I'd expressed and interested in and very quick to support me
postnatally as well.

In terms ofother support, I am always quite hungry for knowledge. So I read all the NHS
resources. I joined the NCT organization and I joined a, an online forum called
[00:06:00] Breastfeeding for Doctors, which was very informative about
troubleshooting, really.

And just to.gives more information.

What's the NCT?So NCT,

Fi: sorry I shouldn't use acronyms, is aI think it's National Childbirth Trust and that is a paid for organization that
puts you in touch with couples who are at the same stage of pregnancy as you
and you kind of have I think it was three half day sessions kind of educating
you about all aspects of baby care, really, and delivery.

Is it expensive?It is expensive. I think it was something around 300 pounds.

Nora: Okay, pricey. And did you getantenatal care provided other than the NHS resources that were like through
booklets and stuff? Did you get face to face antenatal classes in your NHS?

Fi: We didn't, but I think had I wantedit, there was a, like an online website that was semi interactive that you
could access, but there wasn't face to face classes that we accessed.

Nora: That's interesting. And what aboutyou, Flick, then [00:07:00] and your breastfeeding training?

Flick: Yeah, so our experience was, so we,we paid for a private antenatal course, which included breastfeeding support
from, so it was run by midwives, and one of the midwives that they brought in
was like a highly specialist lactation so that was her kind of area of
interest.

So she, , we didlike it was evening classes, maybe every seven, eight weeks and one of the
evening classes was, was focused on, on feeding. So that was I'd say kind of
helpful, but you really don't know until you know, as I know now. But I also
did the Cardiff and the Vale health board where I live.

They offeredmidwife led online, like a zoom course. So I signed up and did that one as
well. Which reinforced kind of some of the more group learning that I'd had.
And that was, that was helpful. And then I think similar to Fee, like being
really hungry for knowledge. I remember even talking to you, Norm, we were like
sharing podcasts back and forth.

And I think alsothrough social media, following a few accounts, which were pro [00:08:00]
breastfeeding and pro supporting women to have the choice to do that. So
that's, yeah, where I started to become exposed to things like colostrum
harvesting and like other aspects of I guess, breastfeeding initiation, which
weren't necessarily mainstream or advised through the standard NHS route.

Nora: Okay. And then with that, like Thatexposed you to things like colostrum harvesting and maybe other equipment that
you might need. Did you purchase anything? Did you do colostrum harvesting? Did
you get a kit from your hospital or?

Flick: So yeah, I actually bought a kit offan online site. Which essentially just involved like the little syringes, I
can't remember, yeah, the tiny little syringes, I can't remember what they were
called.

And, and like ahand expression guide. So yeah, I did colostrum harvest quite late on, maybe
like from 35, 36 weeks. So relatively late into pregnancy. Didn't have a lot of
success in terms of getting huge volumes, but I did manage to, Collect maybe
like 10 syringes or [00:09:00] whatever. And when we took them into hospital
with us and they actually turned out were really useful in my situation.

So they wereutilized, which I know a lot of people who do, who goes to the efforts of that
and doesn't get utilized. So I think to some extent it just gets you used to
maybe a bit of boob feeling and, and expressing, which is something you can get
a bit more used to.

Nora: Yeah, I know. Cause it's such a new.

sensation. Like,it is not something, you know, you're used to. So, yeah. And how about you, Fi?
Had you purchased any equipment or anything like that? So, yeah, I, I think

Fi: I sort of went into overdrive. I hadthese very clear, and which now looking back seem quite unrealistic ideas of
what, Breastfeeding would look like and being able to there's this notion that
I hear about all the time of introducing a bottle So your partner can give a
baby a feed at 6 p.

m Like that thatidea was rooted in my mind So I I remember posting on this forum saying, you
know, i'm looking for a secondhand breast pump and I thought I bought a medela
secondhand medela [00:10:00] from like another doctor in the area and it also
bought hacker new and I purchased a secondhand LV. So I had, before I'd even
got to 36 weeks pregnant, I had these boxes of plastic in, in my house, which
ironically virtually never got used and still remain unused.

Nora: So there's a great secondhand marketavailable for breastfeeding products. Okay.

Flick: Yeah. Like, did you also put like, Igot given and like bought loads of breast pads. Oh my gosh. I still have them
on! Yeah, yeah. It's funny all the

Fi: stuff that you get, isn't it? Andnipple cream! Yeah, I had this huge expectation that my nipples were going to
basically fall off and bleed if I didn't use flannelin or all these other
things that people talk about, but again, I didn't.

I don't think Irealized

Flick: you were hoarding all this plasticbecause I think I'm going to

Fi: save

Flick: it for later.

Fi: I'm going to save it for later. Withmy anxieties, I'd say.

Nora: Yeah, I feel like we're all quitetype A first of all. It's like, well, I'll get all the information and I'll do
all the prep.

So Okay,[00:11:00] cool. So then I think you've kind of like covered a little bit of
your expectations before the birth. So then like you mentioned that you used
that colostrum. So maybe then moving on to the birth of your baby maybe if you
want to describe yourself, because every mother and every baby are quite
different.

So, you know,anything notable about you, your breasts, the baby, around the time of birth,
and how did that initial bit of breastfeeding go.

Flick: Yeah. So I guess I felt like mypregnancy had been relatively smooth sailing. We had a bit of and discussion
around whether I'd had a big, I would have a big baby and whether or not that
might change my outcomes.

I mean, I'mnearly six foot tall, quite athletic, and my husband's over six foot four. So
it was probably likely we're going to have quite a large child a long one at
least. So yeah, apart from that kind of hiccup where we had, we went for a kind
of a growth scan to explore the likelihood of having a large baby.

And then theywanted to refer me for tests for gestational diabetes, but I actually. Having
had the scan declined that because it felt like [00:12:00] it wasn't. relevant
for me and my baby at that point, but anyway, so labour. So I was due on the
1st of September. So I went into labour on the 6th of September and I had a
very long, early labour whereby Thought I was progressing and then my
contractions would cease, forgot, thought I was progressing and my contractions
would cease.

So eventuallyafter going into hospital on the 7th and the 9th and then coming back home
again and then going eventually in on the 9th, so sort of two, three days of at
home in and out of labor, vomiting in and out of the bath. Quite an unpleasant
experience for my husband. I think, I mean, I was just kind of in the zone.

But eventuallyI'd got into established labor and it was a Friday night, so it's the 9th of
September, got into hospital and within, I think four or five hours I deliver
to Jasper, so we my, my birth plan or what I hoped for was to be able to. have
a ward [00:13:00] birth and I was able to spend quite a bit of that established
labor in a birthing pool.

So I was reallylucky that was going to be available because at the time the midwife led unit
was closed and there was only one birthing pool in the, in the hospital that
was accessible. So I was just lucky that I came in at the right time and got
access to that through my expressing it quite clearly, and I guess that being
an option for me.

And so Jasperwas born about 3 a. m. on the Saturday morning. And had kind of an initial skin
on skin time and latch. And then we got him dressed. I had a shower, and then
about, he was having his six hour checks ready to go home. And they picked up
that his breathing was off. And so then we actually had.

Another week inhospital because he was diagnosed with early onset neonatal sepsis and was very
poorly, so we had three days in intensive care and then a further four days of
continuing IV antibiotics. So, I guess my colostrum harvesting came in handy [00:14:00]
because he went off to intensive care.

He was taken offme after that first latch. And we had 36 hours where I wasn't able to hold or
feed him. And it wasn't until like the afternoon of the Sunday that he was well
enough for us to be able to actually sit down and have a proper breastfeed. So the
colostrum was great because it felt like I was able to give him something of
that.

And also thatduring that sort of crazy 36 hours, I had some support from like midwifery care
assistants with hand expressing. And I was really clear that I wanted to
breastfeed my baby. So the midwifery care assistants were great at sort of
supporting me and I remember some of these moments where they just got an
assistant either side of you, like hand expressing your boobs and you're just
tears rolling down your face.

So that was apretty intense time, but managed to, I guess, One of the things I've now
realized is that they were sort of saying to me in intensive care, like, come
every three hours to feed him. And like, there's no way that my little baby
only needed feeding every three hours.

Like, I don'tknow why they [00:15:00] told me that, but every time I'd get down there, he'd
be screaming and they'd be saying, Oh, I think he, you know, he needs another
feed. He needs another feed. So I learned. Read too quickly to not even bother
sleeping, just to like spend as much time possible in intensive care.

And then I didtry and get set up on some of the pumps they had in hospital, which were just
like massive industrial grade Medellas. I don't even know what they're called,
but I just remember having this one, one lesson from midwife and she was
basically like, just stick it on here, plug this in here and off you go.

And it was likea milking machine. I mean, Fee and I grew up on a dairy farm and I literally
felt like a dairy cow. I've got this photo again of me. being attached to this
pump, like bearing in mind that obviously like, like that much stimulation
really early on in my breastfeeding journey. And so then I ended up with
horrendous engorgement and my baby was jaundiced.

He was having IVmy first week was pretty intense. So it was a bit of a battle to avoid him
having like more blood tests. With jaundice, to get his weight, [00:16:00] to
keep feeding, to like advocate for myself and for my baby, so that we could get
home. But making sure that his weight had stopped dropping, because they, they
wanted it to stabilise before they'd let us home and stuff.

So, yeah, thatwas That was my first peek.

Nora: So I did that bit where you'resaying, Oh, they told you to feed three hours, every three hours. My cousin
just had a baby and, the mom had to go back into hospital overnight, so dad was
at home with the baby.

He had threeexpress bottles of milk. He was like, they told me I need, I need to feed the
baby every three hours. And his mother came and he's like, don't be ridiculous,
that baby is crying. Gave her all the three bottles and the baby went to sleep
for four hours. He was like, okay. It's like this magic, totally fake rule.

But yeah. So Isuppose that is brilliant that you had the colostrum in advance and felt that
you were able to do something. And then even, you know, when Jasper was in ICU
that, you know in some ways maybe you had a focus and you were like, okay, well
what I can do outside of this is [00:17:00] do my pumping.

And so you weredoing a mix of hand expression mainly, I suppose in those very early days and
then onto the hospital grade pump.

Flick: Yeah, from like 36 hours after he wasadmitted, I could then feed him, but so I could have him latched on my breasts,
but that required like removing all these wires and, you know, I needed like
support to do it.

I couldn't justgo and pick up my baby and he had to stay there. That makes, he had to stay in
his little

Nora: incubator thing,

Flick: And be like reattached to the oxygensats and all these different things. So it was quite like I think it was in
like day three or four when he got transferred down to the ward to be with me,
that I finally felt like I could do, hold my baby the way I wanted, or like
having with me.

Nora: Okay, yeah, yeah. And credit to youfor, managing to express and feed him when he was in the incubator and all
those different bits, yeah. And how about you, Fiona? How was your, maybe if
you want to describe you and Georgie and any, you know, anything notable about
you in terms of [00:18:00] breastfeeding and your initial?

So yeah,

Fi: we, Georgie's born, she's three. Termplus eight days, I think I was induced because her movements weren't great. I
had delivered vaginally very much with lots of monitoring and lots of doctors
in the room. She got quite stuck at the end, but it was fine. And then I was
able to do skin to skin straight away which is just, you know, you see all
these videos before I had seen these videos before I gave birth about, you
know, the baby crawl and then kind of moving on and she did that.

And it was justthe most. Empowering, exciting, exciting feeling and the euphoria of having
having a baby in your arms after after all of that which I you know, appreciate
not everyone gets so I've just felt so delighted to have a have a I mean She's
crying her eyes out, but having a happy crying baby in my arms and so that was
all great and then we I remember the feeling of suddenly being on my own a
couple hours later, just in the room.

Well, Andy wasthere as well, but, and then we're like, okay, I'm going to try and feed her.
I'm going to try and feed her again. And, [00:19:00] you know, she, she didn't
know what she was doing. I didn't know what I was doing. And, and then she kind
of was quite sleepy. And she was funny. She was, she was a well baby, but she
was a sleepy baby.

And, and thensomeone came in and said, Oh, you know, she's quite sleepy. And so I ended up,
I had harvested some colostrum, but I'd left it at home. When it then went in
the bin, but I then someone gave me a syringe So then I hand expressed into the
syringe because she was too sleepy to latch and then I was able to like drip
feed her with a little little syringe from Kind of you know and that she woke
up a little bit more after that and then was able to latch It turned out she
actually had a quite a significant nearly a hundred percent tongue tongue tie
kind of anteriorly which I actually saw the moment she was born.

I, I looked ather tongue. I thought, Oh, she's got a tongue tie. But then the midwife had
said, no, no, no, she's fine. So actually four weeks went by before the health
visitor then came and said, gosh, she's got a really obvious tongue tie. How is
she feeding? And she was very, this first few weeks, she was very noisy feeder.

But her, youknow, despite the [00:20:00] worries about tongue tie, she was gaining weight
brilliantly and she did become a very refluxy baby. But at that point she
wasn't particularly And I, although, and despite the tongue tie, I didn't
really have much pain really at all. So, We kind of navigated that together.

Nora: Yeah. That's fascinating. So andyeah, I'm really interested in tongue tying. I've, well, you know, a friend of
mine is a dentist and she's like, oh, I just don't believe in it, you know, in
some ways. So I'm interested because there has been such an increase in talk
about it and tongue tie cuts and stuff like that so you didn't release the
tongue tie at all she just said so we

Fi: did so we went so we but it wasn'tfor pain and it wasn't for growth it was because she was I guess we went to see
a tongue, we went to see a tongue tied person privately, but whilst we're
waiting for NHS appointment, but we spoke to the tongue tied person at our
local hospital.

[00:21:00] AndAndy also spoke to one of his maxillofacial colleagues at work and said, and
the, And he said the evidence is kind of equivocal about it, but he said we
don't completely know about what did he say, he kind of was talking about in
later life, how your tongue movements can be affected in terms of like,
speaking or kissing or, you know, eating that kind of thing in later life.

And I, she wasalso so refluxed by sort of five, six weeks that I wondered if the tongue tie
was contributing towards us swallowing a lot of air. So that kind of pushed our
decision towards having it cut. And it was a very quick procedure. 10 seconds.
She cried and then I fed her immediately afterwards.

And that was theend of it really. And her tongue completely appears completely normal now.
Whereas At that time, you know, the tip of her tongue very much was stuck to
the bottom of her mouth. So, I don't know if that was the right thing. It might
have, she might have grown out of it. It could just be a normal anatomical
variant.

It's difficultto know. But for us, it was, it was the right decision at that [00:22:00] time.
But it wasn't based on her feeding. Because actually, you know, in terms of her
growth and her weight gain, she was fine. And , did you feel that it reduced the
reflux? It certainly made absolutely no difference to the reflux.

It possiblymade, I mean, she's still pooing ten times a day. She was possibly quieter on
the breast, maybe. But it, it, it didn't really make much difference to him to
the feeding or high reflux at that, at that point.

Nora: , very much an informed decision on,you know, later life outcomes and different things.

So, yeah that'sreally interesting. And how about you, Flick, , you talked about those very
challenging initial days for Jasper's feeding. How did you get on after that?
Did you have, face any significant challenges? As he's grown.

Flick: So I'd say not particularly. I mean,when he was in hospital, his weight dropped quite a lot.

So he was sortof born maybe on the like 95th that he was, he was eight pounds six. He was
quite a big boy but he dropped down to the 50th. So he, he just kind of, As
soon as we [00:23:00] got home, it just, everything just kind of relaxed and we
got into it. The midwife that I'd actually met antenatally, I called her and
got a home visit from her, so paid for some private additional support.

And shebasically came round and she was like, It's great, just enjoy, you know, she
just reassured me, like, because after all that intense week at hospital, I
think I just needed that. familiar face and expert support just to reassure
that we were getting on the right way. So yeah, our breastfeeding journey was
relatively straightforward.

I mean, it wasmore I guess the battle then that you get into with sleep and breastfeeding and
whether or not you should, you're feeding for comfort too much and all these
narratives that you kind of get exposed to, whether that's from, like our
mother or like our people in our social circle or social media and all these
different things that, you know, maybe your baby will sleep if you don't feed
it so much at night.

And so I think Ithen probably got more into like reading all these different books on sleep and
then sleep and breastfeeding becoming really interchanged and me trying to
maybe modify my feeding because I was, [00:24:00] you know, wanting to, to get,
to get more sleep. But actually like the breastfeeding itself always felt
really like natural for us and relatively straightforward.

Yeah.

And tocontextualize Jasper is just not a particularly good sleeper. Yeah.

Flick: No, but yeah, I guess I've learnedthat maybe. So. Yeah, it will come. That's probably what I've learned, you
know, Sleeping is a skill.

Fi: Sleeping is a skill that babies learnat different rates. Some babies learn to sleep better than others.

Flick: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, Georgie,Fee's little girl, we've talked so much about sleep over the last couple of
years. And so we've talked about everything. And that's been one of the great
things about us having babies at a similar time is that support from each
other, but also that comparison. Oh no, Georgie's sleeping.

What am I doing

Fi: wrong with Jasper? And, you know,

Flick: two

Fi: weeks later. Jasper will be like,Jasper slept for seven hours last night, in a way. Yeah,

Flick: yeah. Sometimes when you're winning,then the other person's not really, are they? So I guess yeah. We [00:25:00]
tried everything with sleep, and now, like, T's done, like, he sleeps perfectly
fine.

And I just wishthat I'd tried less. I wish I'd just sat and enjoyed it more. Not read all the
books, not listened to all the things, and just enjoyed the breastfeeding more.
Because I had to almost get into the place where I was having quite stoic approaches
to it. Like, imagine that this is the last time I get to feed this so that I
could get through those nights where I was feeding three, four times while
still, you know, having to get up and then work a full day.

That was the waythat I coped with it, but in hindsight it, it passes. So

Nora: yeah,

Flick: it's

Nora: hard when you're in it though,there's, you know, can't deny that. So yeah.

Fi: And as a first time mum, you don't,like, I, I struggled to believe that it was just a phase, you know, that you'd
be waking up seven times a night and I'm thinking, is this the rest of my, you
know, is this the rest of my entire adult life?

Am I going tofeel this dreadful, but physically, you know, physically and fatigue wise, but
you don't, it passes.

Nora: And then in terms of your successes,like, you know, [00:26:00] what would you say were the big successes of your
breastfeeding journey or what did you love about it or?

Flick: Oh big success is just, I guess, justbeing able to nourish my child and being able to know, know that I was doing
the best thing by me.

I mean, Theo andI have got a relatively increase of increased risk of cancer within our family.
So knowing that we were making decisions that would be helpful for that Knowing
that, you know, those antibiotics that my child had, I was doing everything possible
to ensure that his gut flora would be developed and wouldn't contribute to any
disadvantage later in life and all those different things.

So I guess justthe biggest success was being able to do it and to be I guess I became very.
Very, just relaxed. I was able to feed anywhere, at any point. I'd be going out
on hikes, like, you know, it didn't stop me doing anything. It was so adaptable
that I could be in a cafe or, you know, on top of a mountain or sat by the
beach or just in the garden.

Like, just wasreally relaxed about it and screw anyone else who was around [00:27:00] really.

Nora: Great. I love that the way like youcan connect your personal needs or medical needs. That makes sense. But, you
know, formal, but like. your increased cancer risk and Jasper's increased, risk
of having a poor gut microbiome because of those antibiotics.

And then you canconnect that to the evidence that is there that just improves it. So that's
really nice. And how about you Fi, you know, you had a pretty straightforward
beginning to your breastfeeding journey. Were there any major challenges or was
it just a dream?

Fi: No, and I, I guess it's, I'm stillfeeding.

So I still feedGeorgie before bedtime. And if she wakes up at night, like she did last night,
if I daddied at bedtime, I fed her at 1am, took me five minutes to sleep. It
was lovely. And I actually felt it this morning because she said, Mommy,
boobie. And sometimes I say, no, let's go for breakfast. But this morning I
thought, you know what?

I miss bedtime.I want to cuddle. So yeah, it's still ongoing for us. The hiccups wise. No, I
mean, it's just so liberating. And the [00:28:00] ease of just being able to go
out without bottles and things like that suited us. Yeah. I had mastitis once
which was a really unpleasant experience.

But I had someantibiotics and it got better. And , it was always received very positively by
everyone in the room or the space that I was in, if I was in public. And it's
so discreet, I think, I used to think that, you know, breastfeeding involved
having like a large pendulous breast on display to everyone.

But it's not.can be very discreet and and that's really feels good as a, as a mum when
you're out in town on your own and you can just feed your baby in a cafe and
watch the world go by. So there's lots of positive moments there for us.

Flick: Yeah. Or when they injure themselvesor when they just need comfort.

Yeah. I had theone thing that we found quite challenging because I'm still very similar to
Fia.

I'm stillfeeding Jasper. Very similar when he wakes up and goes mommy booby at night and
sometimes I'm like no you can just hold it if he's if it's 5 30 a. m and I want
him to go back to sleep so we're negotiating the boundary from and then
sometimes they go no eat [00:29:00] it so negotiating toddler boundaries
feeding once or twice a night but like I went away with work for three days
last weekend didn't have any issues with engorgement so it's You know, and he
was fine with daddy.

So yeah, that'swhere we're at. I do feel there is, I keep fighting myself, like a bit of
external judgment around feeding a toddler. Like as in, when you talk about it,
that's still being part of your routine. And I have this battle, like, I really
want to be proud of it in the work context, like not embarrassed or shy or like
avoidant about the topic of breastfeeding, that it's something that we're still
doing, but so that's like a personal battle I'm on to like.

You know, talkpositively and advocate for, like, which the World Health

Fi: Organization says we should breast,you know, encourages us to breastfeed until two, at least. I don't know where
that comes from, but I, I get that as well.

Flick: Yeah. Like I almost feel like a bitshy and ashamed if I talk about it in a work context which is ridiculous, but
anyway.

Nora: Yeah. But it's great. The more peoplewho do it, you know, the more, you know, You break that glass ceiling and, you
know, it [00:30:00] becomes normal and the next person in your work to
breastfeed and breastfeed up until two or beyond, you know, might be like, Oh,
well, if he did it, so we can talk about it. And then if we talk about it, more
people kind of see it normalized.

But yeah, I, Iwas wondering if you did get a bit of like, I don't know, is it, is it our own
anxieties? Or I suppose you, you read the room, there is a vibe. Yeah, you're
not making it up yet.

So. So you bothmentioned that you're both back at work and still breastfeeding. Maybe you'd
talk to you know, how did you find going back to work? Was that a challenge
with breastfeeding or yeah, how'd you get on?

Flick: So if I, Just talk to my experience.So I was lucky in terms of the health visitor that visited me runs a local
breastfeeding support group. So throughout my maternity leave, I accessed booby
club on a, on a weekly basis. And that allowed me to kind of just check in on
any concerns. And one of the things that I use that for was to talk about
planning my return to work.

So, [00:31:00]The way that I returned to work is I did some phase kind of keeping in touch
kit days prior to when I actually started back when Jasper was 12 months. I
think potentially what I, maybe it was a bit ambitious with the amount of time
that I did for those. I don't know if that contributed to my experience, but I
ended up with recurrent mastitis during that kind of phase return, because I
think I was going from like, maybe feeding him three or four times in the day
to then being away from him for some, from seven hours.

And, and therewas one occasion where there were some interviews at work for roles that I
would be managing. So I wanted to be involved in those interviews, which are
two days back to back. And I ended up like 48 hours later, having a really
nasty bout of mastitis. And that kind of happened a couple of times whether or
not it was related to those, those you know periods away from, I'm not sure,
but so that I found quite tricky, but alongside, I guess, the, the nursery
settling in for us, that was quite an emotional journey.

Jaspie wouldalways scream at drop off And I [00:32:00] wanted to latch as soon as I saw him
when I picked him up, like so I remember just sitting in the car park feeding
quite a lot after nursery. And the intensity with like driving to the nursery
after work, Fee and I used to sometimes talk to each other like, you just are
like a woman possessed in terms of you want to get to your baby after work.

And I want to

Fi: feed them because your boobs are sofull.

Flick: Yeah, yeah. So I didn't try and pumpor express at work. I didn't try and like do anything like that to kind of
manage it. I just got to the end of the day and I needed to see my baby. So
yeah, those are kind of like my experiences. I think there were like quite a
few times when obviously they settle in nursery and they just pick up every
virus going.

So Jasper was inthree days a week. And I mean, for the first few months, we were probably
missing Good 2030 sessions because he either had a gastro bug or a cold bug or
conjunctivitis or something. And so that meant [00:33:00] that either me or my
husband were having time off work and probably our breastfeeding was then
upping because he was poorly in.

So thatdefinitely kind of altered the smoothness of the journey.

Nora: It's hard. Especially if you're like,hey, wait a minute, breastfeeding is supposed to stop all these, but actually I
just think that I got them all. And so like, then you brought them home, they
were sick, they gave them to me. And I was like, well, I can't develop the
antibodies until after I've had it.

This is a fallacy. I'm not convincedbreastfeeding stops all these illnesses.

Flick: Yeah. And you're so sick and you'rejust like, hi, I'm back at work. But you're just like streaming and you're
like, sorry, I'm working from home again because I've got another bug. I'm
trying to manage sick days and stuff.

But. I'm luckymy workplace has been very supportive of that, so.

Nora: Actually interesting, so in, I don'tknow if you guys have this in England and Wales, but in Ireland we now have
legislation that breastfeeding mothers can have an hour per day at
breastfeeding breaks, so that can either be split into pumping breaks throughout
the day in work, [00:34:00] or depending on your workplace, often, you know,
half an hour at the beginning and half an hour at the evening, you know, to get
home earlier or whatever.

Do you have anysupports like that from the government?

Fi: Gosh, that sounds so positive. I, Ithink I'm aware of legislation that I, as a breastfeeding mother in, in Wales,
I have access to a breastfeeding, a rim to pump or whatever. But certainly, and
I think there is some legislation around not doing antisocial hours, which as a
doctor was possibly relevant.

The practicalreality was that I never got any extra time. I didn't ask for it. And. I just
managed the stress internally of, of leaving, of feeding George as we drop off
and immediately I pick up at 5. 58 p. m. before

it

Nora: closed at

Fi: six.

Nora: And how did you manage with thatinitial kind of going back to work and the breastfeeding?

Was it just sameas Flick?

Yeah,

Fi: so Georgie was Yeah, Georgia was 10and a half months when I actually went back to work. I went [00:35:00] back
four days, but they're always, I always had to go physically do work and kind
of was leaving at 7 45 and would pick her up at six.

So it was longdays and I panicked a lot about how she would manage because we was, when I was
with her, we were still feeding, but I had quite a reassurance from, from
people I'd then met at that point, he had older children. He said, no, it's
fine on the days when you're together, you'll feed and on the days you're not
together.

You know, she'lldrink water and she'll eat. And she was eating well, which gave me lots of
assurance. And I just, just went back to it. I hadn't done any keeping in touch
days. But she, she coped and I coped and she, at that point, Georgie was quite
happy to be dropped off. So there wasn't quite such an emotional pull at the
drop off.

She was very rarely distressed. when I droppedher off. This case is different now, she often cries now, but at that point
she, cognitively, I don't think it was, was computing that I was leaving her
particularly, so it wasn't emotional. And you ended up changing your child care
setup, didn't you Fee?

Yeah, because[00:36:00] I was, you know, I felt like I was having to break the speed limit
to get like this, the intensity of that desire to get back to her and thinking,
gosh, she'll be desperate for boobie was really overwhelming. And, you know, I
was affecting my decision making at work. So it wasn't sustainable. So that
happened for about eight weeks.

And then wemanaged to employ a part time nanny, which is, we're very lucky that we're able
to afford that. My husband's had to work extra locums for the entire year to
afford it, but. It meant that she was then picking up Georgie at lunchtime and
then would have her at our home until I got back home.

And I knew thatshe was, you know, soothed and reassured by Anna the nanny and she was having,
then having her evening meal at home at 5. 30. So I didn't think she'd be
hungry as well as wanting boob. But then, you know, it still happens now that
when I get back, she wants to feed. But it's, that intensity was managed by
kind of adjusting our

Nora: child care.

Brilliant. Yeah,and that's great to hear actually because, you know, and that won't be forever,
you know, that, that, that's a period [00:37:00] when your baby is, you know,
Just learning to eat and all those challenges. So, yeah, it's great to think outside
the box and go, Okay, well, look, this is very expensive. We are going to have
to work a bit harder to pay for it, but it'll be for a while and, you know,
it'll work for us.

Fi: Yeah, and that's coming to an endshortly. So it's been a short term

Nora: fix. And so then actually that kindof brings me on to my next question. So what was your partner's role?
breastfeeding and how did they find it? So maybe Fi, what did Andy make of it
other than having to work extra? Yeah, this is,

Fi: this is something which is it was, itwas an issue for us, I think, if I'm honest Andy found himself he's a doer,
he's a fixer.

He likes to beinvolved. He likes to problem solve and is a very logical person and babies are
neither logical nor fixable. You know, they're just little humans that have
needs. And he struggled to adjust to the sense of not being able, I think
almost the impotence of not being able to soothe Georgie if she was upset or
wanted a [00:38:00] feed.

And waited untilshe was probably six or seven weeks before trying a bottle and she of expressed
milk, which I'd hand expressed very, I was going to say pathetically, but
that's the wrong language to use, but I'd probably managed to hand express 15
mils of milk or something tiny which was sitting in a bottle of a bottle,
bottom of a bottle that Georgie probably was struggling to get any milk from.

And she wasincensed with, you know, frustration and anger, and it was not going well. And
that, we probably tried that five times, but I think we would have got divorced
if it carried on because I couldn't bear to see her upset. And he couldn't bear
the fact that I was trying to impose on his one opportunity to feed his
daughter.

So it was areally emotive topic for us. And even now he, it's something that. there's a
bit of tension talking about, you know, he's, he was completely aware that
there was lots of other things that he could do. And he was very supportive,
like he was delighted that I was breastfeeding and it worked really, really
well for Georgie.

But I think forhim, it was a real I guess he's not here [00:39:00] to articulate his, his
perspective on that. But he he found my I guess I was also maybe trying to be
in control a lot and he found that difficult to not have any involvement in
being able to feed Georgie for those first six months. And

Nora: as beyond the six months as youcontinue to breastfeed and I suppose sometimes as the baby gets a bit older and
you know they nearly can express more, that they want it now and it's only
coming from Mammy, you know, is that still challenging for him as Georgie gets
a bit older?

Yeah,

Fi: it's much better. Yeah, it's muchbetter than it was. And now, for example, when we breastfeed before storytime
at bedtime, we've got this lovely habit where Andy usually gets in her pyjamas
and then I sit on the bed breastfeeding and Andy just lies next to us and we
just, we just have a chat and it's, Like, we're a little trio, we're a little,
it's a really special family time, almost every day that we're there together.

And he lovesthat because he just, he's right there involved, really close [00:40:00] by,
which it's taken us a long time to get to that. But that, that feels really
positive, you know, he's, he, he just enjoys that now, that's it, that's a
really lovely part of our, of our routine.

Nora: That's really nice, and like, Yeah,it's very nice and it's honest to say that it is hard for some dads.

And it'sinteresting for him, he's a medic as well, isn't he? So like, from that
perspective, informed probably, you know, likely support the breastfeeding, but
then from a personal emotional perspective to be frustrated. And I think as
women, we have that as well sometimes. It's like, you know, I know, you know,
all the evidence says it's really good for baby, but.

I'm finding thisreally hard, you know, or yeah, that's, that's a struggle. And

Fi: I suppose it's pretty worthmentioning that I was, I became the, probably three, four months post natal, I
became incredibly anxious and quite depressed in retrospect, and was having CBT
and, and perhaps wasn't thinking, I wasn't, [00:41:00] I certainly wasn't
thinking as clearly as I am now, and I was struggling to communicate my needs.

I was feelingexhausted. And I think You know, your relationship is such for us that our
relationship had taken, you know, taken a big hit. As it often does when a baby
arrives within it, within that context. So that, yeah, it's Yeah, it was a
tricky time for us, if I'm honest.

Nora: Yeah,

Fi: yeah.

Nora: Oh, I feel you.

And how aboutyou, Flick? How did Noam adapt breastfeeding, or what was his role in it?

Flick: Yeah, so Noam was hugely supportive.Probably just enjoyed the fact that Like he then had free time to some extent.
I think he was more than happy to like, be the entertainer, to play with the
baby. Like he was really hands on, baths, nappies.

But to someextent, yeah, he just let, he let breastfeeding down to me. Which at times felt
like a huge responsibility. I think kind of similar to Fee, I was, you know we
did, we did have a couple of [00:42:00] attempts with like feeding his breast
milk from a bottle and the purpose of that was for me to have a bit of time to
myself because I wanted to go to Pilates class in the evening or I wanted to be
able to like have a couple of extra hours, like a sleep, but we never really
settled on that being particularly successful.

There were acouple of times, like most of the time I'd have to just end up coming in with a
boob to calm things down and dad would be exasperated or, you know, I'd have
gone to Pilates and been out the house for 90 minutes and come back and they'd
both almost be in tears. So I then felt really awful for going, but they were
able to kind of, I guess, yeah, they were able to kind of have that experience
together.

Yeah. But Ialways felt like it was, it was, what was it teaching Jasper then if mum then
always sweeps in to make it better, but to some extent I think it's, it's kind
of worked its way through. Now he's a bit older. Like Jasper very much knows
like daddy's for fun and [00:43:00] mommy's for comfort, so he falls over and
he wants mommy, but if he wants to play, he wants daddy.

So I think he'sgot our roles quite, quite clearly set out. And yeah, I just, I don't want to
say no, I'm just being like hugely open and quite neutral, like supportively
neutral about breastfeeding. Like he's never made it a big, big deal. And he's,
he's very like liberal in, you know, like he's the sort of person that always
pees with the toilet door open.

So like the factthat your boobs are everywhere or like he doesn't want you to cover up in front
of people or anything like that. So I think that's probably been really
encouraging and really like liberating for me. He's never made me feel
uncomfortable about some of the, like, weird things that happen, or when you
end up with milk leaking all over the bed and stuff, he's just like, natural.

Nora: Brilliant. Okay. Yeah. And that's,that's another, important support is that, you know, the people who just make
you feel accepted and, you know, because it is art, especially at the beginning
and all those different bits that [00:44:00] are new experiences, you know,
yeah. So on the days that you felt like giving up flick, what made you not give
up?

Flick: Oh I can definitely remember those,like that stoic pattern of thinking where like, imagine that this is the last
time I get to feed you. My baby, like, imagine if, which sounds a bit morbid,
but like, savour it, like, it's 3am and it's the fourth time you've already
been up, but like, how does it feel? How does he smell?

What's thesensation? So trying to be quite mindful in those moments. What else? I think
those motivations that we touched on, I guess, which are probably bigger than
just the breastfeeding itself. So his health, my health and things that I
connected with, I guess, talking to yourself yeah, talking to mums in the booby
club and getting reassurance from peers that, you know, it may change soon or
there'll be parts of it, which will shift and you'll suddenly, you know,
suddenly the sleep may get a bit better.

Well, yeah,[00:45:00] I, I think those are probably the factors that influence me.

Fi: And what about you Fi? So I find thetimes when I've wanted to quit is when I've got a bit of feeding aversion,
which is normally about 5am. And I just think, I don't want you to touch my
breasts. I feel like tired and exhausted and hot and cold and sick all at the
same time.

And I've foundthat tricky, but it's. always been better when you look down and Georgie's
settled on the breast and that kind of, this too shall pass feeling. And having
a bit of insight thinking that this mindset is a product of the immediate
environment I'm in right now. It's not how I actually feel.

And, you know,it's normally better by three or four hours later. And having a snack
generally, often my motivation is really directly affected by how many, how
many snacks I've had that day. So you know, I used to eat literally, I remember
eating brownies at like three or four in the morning. [00:46:00]

Flick: I

Fi: forget about the midnight, the latenight snacking.

Cause you're sohungry. I'm hungry. Hunger and the thirst, which I still get if I've not drunk
properly. Thirst. Thirst. Yeah, that intensity.

Nora: And those sweats, remember thosepostpartum sweats? Like, you change your pajamas twice a night, you're like,
what is going on? Yeah, and

Fi: the, and the wound pain, I like,sometimes, you know, the contractions you get when you're feeding, sometimes I
used to get that postnatally.

But no, just,yeah, a bit like Fisty, the wider context of thinking, no, in the longer term,
this is good for Georgie's psychological health, her physical health, and just
wanting to carry on.

Nora: And so then, any tips, tricks, oradvice that you have for a woman who hasn't breastfed yet?

Fi: Feed as often as you like.

You can't feedyour baby too much. And just always have snacks and drinks and your mobile
phone next to you. What about you,

Flick: Flo? Oh, exactly what she said. Yeah,you can't feed your baby too much. Don't listen to the, what it, yeah, and, and
[00:47:00] save your money on the stuff. Like, I mean, the plastic, the extras,
the creams, you know, I guess some people find them useful, but for me, they
were just all superfluous thing.

Your body isperfectly designed to feed this baby. So I guess if you're having to maybe lean
on some of that stuff, is there something wrong with your latch or maybe like
you need some support instead of having all the extra bits of plastic and
creams and stuff.

Nora: , go back to your lactationconsultant, like, check their laptop, go back to your basics that they taught
you the very first day

that's, that'sgood advice, because often it is that those basics that you've, Gotten lazy
about it, forgotten it or whatever. Okay, well thank you guys so much for being
guests on Breastfeeding Stories Pod. It has just been so interesting and such a
joy to listen to both of your breastfeeding stories and to know that they're
ongoing.

And yeah, justreally enjoyed it. Thank you so much. Thank you for having us, Nora. Thanks for
the opportunity.

If you'veenjoyed the podcast, please share with a [00:48:00] friend, leave a comment on
the episode and Spotify, subscribe and rate the podcast wherever you get your
podcasts from. My special thanks to this week's guest and to Una Ní Fhlannagáin
at una.ie for the original music. Check out our website, www.

breastfeedingstoriespod.com. And if you'd like to share your story, just click on, tell your story and
book in your zoom call.

SHOWNOTES

Navigating Breastfeeding Challenges and Triumphs with Sisters Flick andFi

In this episode of Breastfeeding Stories, host Nora introduces us tosisters Flick and Fi, who share their unique breastfeeding journeys. Flick, and
Fi, a healthcare workers, recount how their family background and professional
training influenced their decisions to breastfeed. They detail varied
experiences from Flick's challenging first week due to her son's neonatal
sepsis and hospital stay, to Fi's revelation of her daughter's severe tongue
tie and subsequent decision to have it cut. Both sisters discuss how
breastfeeding impacted their lives and relationships, particularly when
returning to work and managing childcare. They touch on the support from
partners, the emotional ups and downs of breastfeeding, and offer practical
advice for new mothers. The episode emphasizes the importance of support,
resilience, and finding joy in the breastfeeding journey.

00:00 Introduction to Breastfeeding Stories

00:43 Meet the Guests: Flick and Fi

01:17 Early Thoughts on Breastfeeding

04:28 Training and Preparation for Breastfeeding

11:08 Birth Experiences and Initial Breastfeeding Challenges

24:32 Sleep Struggles and Triumphs

25:55 Breastfeeding Successes and Challenges

30:25 Returning to Work While Breastfeeding

37:25 Partner's Role in Breastfeeding

46:35 Tips and Advice for New Mothers

47:36 Conclusionand Final Thoughts

Use a text section to describe your values, show more info, summarize a topic, or tell a story. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore.

Nora InterviewEpisode 12

Nora: [00:00:00] Welcome to BreastfeedingStories Pod. My name is Nora and here we share the highs and lows, the
positives and negatives, the successes and the challenges of our breastfeeding
journeys. This week I swap seats and I become the guest of the show. I tell my
story as a registered dietician, a lecturer in public health nutrition, having
all of this academic knowledge about breastfeeding, but when it came to the
nuts and bolts of actually doing it, really struggling,

Welcome toBreastfeeding Stories. And so this week we are going to have a change. And one
of our previous guests, Kimmy, is going to take the chair as interviewer.

And I am goingto take the chair as guest. So Kimmy, I am going to hand it over to you.

Kimmi: Hello. Hi, Nora. Welcome toBreastfeeding Stories Pod. Let's start with a quick introduction about who you
are and your family background.

Nora: So my name is Nora and I am [00:01:00]married to Cian and we have one baby, Leisha. She is 18 year and a half,
roughly, a little bit more now.

And we have adog called Samhain, who's our first baby. There's a lot of jealousy between the
two. That's, that's our little family. Beautiful.

Kimmi: So when did you start thinking aboutbreastfeeding and what was your motivation?

Nora: So honestly, I would say that thishappened like very young. So I think one standout moment is that when I was 15
doing my junior cert which is our exams around that time, I was studying home
economics and I had to do a project.

And the projectI chose was a project on breastfeeding. So like in an examined subject, that
was the topic I chose. So it was clearly like I was interested in food. I'm
actually then went on to train as a dietician but my mom is retired now, but
she was a public health nurse. So she'd originally trained as a midwife and
then [00:02:00] she had her own babies and ran a bed and breakfast for years
and went back then and trained as a public health nurse.

And. Even whenshe was running the B& B she was always kind of a breastfeeding fairy, so
she would help all of her nieces, all of my dad's nieces, of which there are
many, we come from big families our neighbours, you know, she was always just
there to help women in those early days with breastfeeding.

So that musthave, you know, she always talked really positively about her own breastfeeding
journey. So yeah, I think, you know, that motivation to breastfeed for me was
clearly there from a very early age. And then yeah, I suppose it just grew. I
knew from a young age that that was something that I wanted to do if I was
going to have a baby.

Yeah.

Kimmi: Amazing. So, on your scale, I thinkthat you were up the top.

Nora: Yes, yeah, I was like, if it was a 1to 10 scale, I was 20. Like, I was doing this. Commander [00:03:00] Highwater.
And I was, so I was quite binary about breastfeeding before I started
breastfeeding, you know, black and white breasts is best or, you know, I want
to breastfeed and yeah, I probably had a bit of formula is bad.

Which is notsomething I believe now. Formula industry is bad, but formula itself is. Bloody
wonderful, real help for a lot of people. But yeah, I kind of had a breast is
the only way and sure women are doing it all over the world. There's no reason
we can't do it. And yeah, so it was pretty binary.

And I was, I wasvery motivated to breastfeed before I had my baby.

Kimmi: So obviously you've got a really goodfamily support system there with your, your mom and all her training and your
cousins and all the breastfeeding around you. Did you go to any classes or
groups yourself, like, pre birth?

Nora: Yeah, so this is kind of what made mestart the podcast was I then went on to study as a dietitian in my in [00:04:00]
college.

And so as adietitian, you know, part of our role, you know, or part of our training, at
least you might work in a different area, but it is around breastfeeding and
breastfeeding support a little bit. And the, the academic side of it. how good
breastfeeding is for mother and baby in terms of health and things.

And then I hadgone, I remember being on a placement and going to some breastfeeding training
as a dietician. I now lecture in public health nutrition. So I had given
lectures on the benefits of breastfeeding. And then from a more practical point
of view, I, yeah, had a lot of friends as well as family members, although I
didn't see them breastfeeding that much, you know, only one or two of them
actually.

And I did, I waskind of, you know, I did feel that I was maybe a bit of fish out of water when
it came to what do I actually, I know how good it is, but how do I do it? So I
did, I bought a course online called the Thompson method. It just like came up on
Facebook or something. And I watched, she's an Australian [00:05:00] lactation
consultant, I think, or nurse or something.

And watched someof those videos and took some notes. You know, I'm a bit of a nerd, so I
actually did a good bit of the course. And then the other thing I did was I
attended my local breastfeeding support group when I was about 35 weeks
pregnant. So I looked it up online. They've got a list of all the groups and I
messaged them and said, can I come along?

They were like,yeah, no bother. And I went with no baby, just big bump. And yeah, I'm really
glad I did that because yeah, I'm really I remember my first week attending
that group it was raining and there was no car parking spaces because it's
beside a church and there was a funeral on and so I had to park further away
and I had this tiny baby and it was raining and I remember thinking if I had
not been to this group when I was pregnant and they had been so nice and
welcoming and they gave me a cup of tea and I knew how to get in to the hall
where it's on.

I would justturn around and go back and cry. I was crying around the verge of tears
anyways. But yeah, so I think [00:06:00] that was, that was the most important
thing I did. In preparation. All the other things, honestly, were a bit useless
when the time came. Yeah.

Kimmi: Did you harvest colostrum prior tobirth?

Nora: I did not because I was so convincedthat my baby was going to be two weeks late, because I was two weeks late, my
siblings were two weeks late that, I didn't quite get around to it, so I did
call them.

I organised acolostrum harvesting kit, and I was supposed to pick it up from reception on, I
think, Thursday or Friday, but I gave birth nine days early, and so I was in
hospital having that baby on the Wednesday. So I had to ring down to reception
afterwards, or the lactation consultant came up to me and was like, Oh, blah,
blah, blah, and I was like, Actually, I called you earlier this week for
colostrum kit, and it's at reception, so obviously we don't need that anymore.

So, no, I didn'tget round to classroom harvesting, although I had intent, I knew what it could
be useful for, and I just hadn't got round to it yet.

Kimmi: I [00:07:00] vividly remember the,I'll be in January, and then getting the phone call, being like, huh, oh,
December is it?

So, after yourbirth, can you describe yourself and your baby? Did you have big breasts, small
breasts, nipples? Good supply and maybe you've got tongue tie or anything.

Nora: So I have always had big breasts. I'mlike 32g kind of breast size. So I just always, I knew that there was no
correlation between breast size and milk supply, but I'm still annoyed because,
you know, as the nurses always said, right from the beginning, you have milk,
you have enough, but I didn't have any extra.

I've never had adrop extra, or that's my feeling anyways. So I have large breasts and I have
flat nipples, which is not something I'd. Ever heard of those? Knew about? I
noticed in all the years I've looked at my breasts, I didn't know it was a
thing and it wasn't until after I had my baby that [00:08:00] all the nurses
looked at me and said, Oh, you've flat nipples.

And I was like,okay, I've never heard of this. And what does that mean? And how does that
going to impact my journey? So and then my baby, yeah, it was pretty standard.
She was obviously a small bit early, but she was seven pounds five and she, I
had quite a fast vaginal delivery. So she got rid of a lot of mucus, threw up a
lot of mucus, this kind of yellowy mucus that C section babies often have a lot
of as well, because I think if you have a slower vaginal delivery, kind of the
compressions through the vaginal canal push it out. Whereas because my baby
Blew out on one go. She maybe didn't have time in the vaginal canal to get that
mucus. thrown out. And so that was the only kind of notable thing about her.
Physiologically they checked her and she didn't have any tongue tie or anything
like that. But after my birth I did get to put her straight onto my chest,
which was lovely.

And she, I thinkshe was rooting [00:09:00] kind of and she latched. Did she latch? I can't
remember. She didn't really. Latch, I don't think. She didn't latch because
that was an ongoing issue at the beginning. But I remember the nurse saying,
you know, like doing a little bit of hand expression of colostrum for me to
kind of put it onto her baby's lips.

And, you know,she said, you have the milk there. That's not a problem. Don't worry. You know,
it'll happen. And yeah, so that was kind of our birth. Immediately after birth,
I had to go in. I had a I had a retained placenta and a tear, so I had to go for
surgery. So, you know, but we did get some, you know, about an hour probably of
skin to skin before that happened while I was kind of just waiting for the
placenta to naturally come out. So I didn't feel rushed per se at all. And
right from the beginning, it was clear that she wasn't really latching. So that
was the beginning of our breastfeeding journey. [00:10:00] And then, so the
baby went with my husband and then when I came back and into recovery my
husband, who's quite a quiet guy, I think he'd overheard a couple while he was
waiting for me.

And the husband,or the partner, has said to the woman, I wish we'd ask for more help. And so,
while Cian isn't somebody who likes to ask for help, that was one thing he said
to me as he left me with our brand new baby. He said, don't be afraid to ask for
help tonight. So, that kind of stuck with me. And yeah, so like that first
night, you know, I didn't, I expected to have all this cluster feeding, be up
all night and stuff, and that wasn't really the case, like she was just quite
sleepy, and I was trying to put on the breast, and I rang the bell a few times
and got the nurses to come in and hand express for me, so I felt like a cow for
the first five days I had nurses.

Continuallycoming round and [00:11:00] hand expressing different one each time, you know,
it was intimate, interesting, you know, not for everybody, but I didn't mind, I
just was like, yeah, tits were out, like, it was just the whole five days I was
in the hospital, I just did not give a crap, because, you know, it was funny,
the doctors might come around, and if you'd a male doctor or something, or
elderly, they would be like, oh, I'm so sorry, and be like, I'm just
breastfeeding, like, I don't care if you come in, you know, like, what do you
need to do?

Like so yeah, Iwasn't shy. But yeah, those first, after birth, those first few days were hard.
Because I had to be, the nurses had to hand express me and I tried it myself,
but I found it quite difficult. They gave me a hospital grade pump. It wasn't
very successful at all. So despite, you know, it was interesting.

There was. Onelactation consultant, St. Margaret, who is what I call her. And oh my god,
she's just got so much milk out of me. I was just like, this is amazing and it
really motivated me. I knew, you know, that first nurse had said, the milk is
there, don't [00:12:00] worry. And I was struggling to get it out with hand
expression because I didn't have those skills.

Obviously it's,it's, yeah. You know, like any skill, something you learn. This lactation
consultant, Margaret, was amazing and she got loads out, like in a short time.
I was like, oh my god, you're incredible. But then there were other, there was
another nurse that, I don't, I don't know what uniform, she was definitely some
kind of nurse, but maybe a more senior nurse.

She actuallybruised me bruised my nipples and it was incredibly painful and I should have
said stop, but you know, I was tired and I didn't necessarily know. It wasn't
supposed to hurt for any woman listening and expression should not be painful.
St. Margaret did got loads of milk out of me with the right technique.

It's likeanything and it should not be painful. So any of the, maybe a couple of younger
nurses and that, that woman was sore. Like, you know, they're pinching and
pushing. And whereas then another, some of the nurses were just amazing and
we're brilliant help and yeah, [00:13:00] I do ring the bell a lot to get that
support because I was after my first surgery, I ended up having a hemoglobin,
having to go in for a second surgery on day two after the birth.

So, like, I waswrecked. I'd lost quite a lot of blood. I, like, I couldn't, I didn't have the
skills and I didn't have the energy to try and learn the skills. So I just kind
of had to ring that bell and like Cian said, ask for the support for them to come
and get into syringe, syringe it into Alicia and keep trying to latch her.

And then, youknow, a couple of people had mentioned nipple shields. And so in preparation
for my breastfeeding, my birth and my breastfeeding journey I had like, I got a
load of stuff from a friend and there was, you know, nipple bams and Breast
bags, breast milk collection bags and all this kind of stuff and there were
actually nipple shields in it I just didn't see them and I didn't know what
they [00:14:00] were because I'd never heard of them So I didn't, they were
there.

I didn't knowuntil months later when I looked in the bag and then I was in hospital and
these nurses and the lactation consultant I think had mentioned Nipple shields.
I just didn't really, I didn't know what they were, so they are little, like,
flimsy plastic things that go over your nipples and have a little hole in the
top, and for somebody with flat nipples like me, they provided like a plastic
nipple that was just a bit bigger and deeper, and allowed baby to latch a bit
better, but I remember thinking, like, the first maybe two days, A couple of
people mentioned it, but I didn't know where to get them.

I didn't knowhow much they were going to cost. I didn't really know what they were. So I
wish somebody had said, you get them in, so eventually somebody said, you get
them in the pharmacy across O'Connell Bridge, which was like a five minute
walk. And they're about three euro. Like, they were so cheap. I wish, you know,
like there were days there.

Of suffering,for [00:15:00] me. Probably more than two, maybe three days, I can't remember.
And if somebody had just said that on day one, I would have sent my partner to
go and get them and try them out faster. But anyways, eventually we did we did
send them, get them try them out and it was instantaneous.

She latched. Andnot only did she latch, but when she came off, I could actually see some milk
in the nipple shield. So that was an amazing comfort because, you know, I'd
really been struggling with the hand expression and with the hospital grade
pump to express much or anything. And I don't know, I'd never felt I know a lot
of people talk about, like, Their breasts when the milk comes in that they get
like really hard and big and things like I didn't feel that and I couldn't
necessarily feel any difference right throughout my very long breastfeeding
journey, you know, before and after a feed, to be honest, of my breasts, were
they full or empty, like, I kind of got [00:16:00] to, you know, more sensitive
to that like months and months in, but to be honest, It never really couldn't
tell that much, to be honest, so, you know, that was hard, so it was really
nice to see a little bit of milk in those nipple shields and be like, yes, yes,
we're doing it.

So yeah, so wegot out of the hospital on the nipple shields and similar to your story, Kimmy,
you know, There was a lot of kind of negative talk around them like, Oh well,
like, no, you wouldn't want to be on them forever. And, you know, they're not
the best and she might not get enough milk. And so maybe actually when we were
in the hospital the baby was losing weight.

So they camearound and they measured her and she was, like I said, getting rid of a lot of
that mucus. So, you know, all babies are going to lose weight after they give
birth. That's totally normal and natural because they're quite high in fluid
when they come out. And so they just shed a bit of that water weight.

But I know thereare certain [00:17:00] boundaries that they don't want you to go past. And if I
remember correctly, 10 percent or 7 percent body weight loss is what they're
trying to avoid. I can't remember the exact number, but yeah. So I was keen to
avoid formula because I, like I said, was quite binary about this.

Oh, well, if shetakes a bottle, she'll never take the breast and that kind of thing. But we
weighed her over a period of Like a morning, an evening, and the next morning,
or morning, evening, and night time or something. And she was trending
downwards, and she had passed, you know, she was passing the level at which
she, you know, they consider the safe limit of weight loss for a newborn.

And I could seethat trend downwards, and I was like, okay, we're gonna have to top her up,
that's it, you know. I actually was kind of okay with that. I'm a scientist and
the trend was downwards. I was at this stage on the nipple shields and I felt
more confident that we're starting to establish breastfeeding.

But at the sametime, I didn't have all these cues of like really full breasts or [00:18:00]
like milk leaking everywhere. You know, I've never had a I've never had one
drop of milk leak out of my breasts, ever.

Kimmi: Wow,

that'sincredible.

Nora: So I've always had like a little bitof self consciousness about like, maybe I don't have that much milk, you know?

So, you know, Iknew that anyways, at this stage, like, the weight was trending downwards, but
we were on the up with the breastfeeding, because I had the nipple shields now,
and we were getting, I was learning and she was learning a bit better and stuff,
so, I was like, yeah, it's fine, we'll just top up for a few days until we You
know, we will get better at this.

I can see hergetting better. I can see me getting better. So yes, that was fine. I had to
top up with formula. I was a bit uncomfortable that it was formula. And when I
came home from hospital, I had a very good friend who had had a baby and had
had a huge milk supply and she was passing my house and she said, do you want
me to bring you some frozen breast milk?

[00:19:00] And Idon't think I'll ever receive a gift. So kind at such a moment when, you know,
that really. helped me feel more comfortable about supplementing. I couldn't
get any additional, you know, I was trying to pump, but it just wasn't working
for me at all. I might get like a few mils. It was very depressing.

And I, I knewfor myself, I was like, I need to stop pumping because if I don't get anything
in the pump, then I will question my supply at all. Yeah. But I know baby's
getting milk and I just need, I need to trust that and the pumping is gonna
really mess my head up and go, Oh no, the baby's not getting anything and you
didn't put any milk in.

So, so I kind ofknew I was like, it'll have to be formula or, or on the breast. Using the
nipple shield, pumping just doesn't, isn't for me. But yeah, so my friend came
to the rescue and brought me up a load of frozen breast milk. And so that was
amazing. I got to use that for a couple of weeks to just top up [00:20:00]
baby, you know, by small amounts, 13 meals and stuff a day maybe.

So that wasincredible. At a time where I was so worried about baby's weight and worried
about my own supply and things like that. So yeah, so then we kind of I'm
incredibly lucky to live in an area where we've got an incredible HSE, so
government funded lactation consultant in our community.

And she came tothe house and she encouraged me to just, you know, I did probably about a day
of like, Pumping, formula, and breastfeeding. And I was like, I don't know,
like, there's no way, like, you're so tired, so tired. And like, I'd had two
pretty major surgeries. I'd been in hospital for five days. My arm was in my
boots.

Like, I justpushed out a baby. Like, I was so sleep deprived. People were just like, no.
No, yeah. So the lactation consultant was kind of on my side. She was just
like, yeah, like, I think you can do this. Like, you know, just get with, [00:21:00]
Go breastfeeding you know, or you get to a point where you reduce those
additional feeds, the formula and the pumping, and see you again on.

But I was justlike, yeah, I did that for all of about 24 hours and I was like, yeah, I'm not
doing that. So I just kind of trusted myself and went full on breastfeeding
with the Dipple Shields. And I was very anxious about it. The baby's weight,
but, so the public health nurse would come and weigh her, or then we have a
breastfeeding support group in Ennis where I live, so I went to that and that
was amazing because I had the peer support, I got the expert guidance from
Gubbinesh, our breastfeeding nurse, and they have a scales so you can strip
your baby and weigh it.

And I was like,honestly, it was like drugs, like every week I would have to go and weigh the
baby, but like, and I wrote down all of her weights, and like, You know, other,
you know, I think the average weight gain is 80 grams a week or something like
that. If I had 20 grams, if I was any way [00:22:00] trending up and some weeks
she'd be stable, there wouldn't be an increase.

And I'd be like,that doesn't matter so long as she's not going down, you know. And that really,
while on one hand it's like, at the beginning that was, what do you say,
beating me with stick. Like that was the, the big worry was she was going to
lose weight and she was losing too much weight. And, and that is a valid point.

Concern, youknow, with the babies, it's one of a few markers that health professionals have
to, you know, assess the baby's well being. But yeah, on the other hand, then
it really helps to motivate me and give me a bit of reassurance that it's
working. And even though you aren't spilling milk out like everybody else, you
still can pump and get anything.

And you're onnipple shields, your baby's doing fine, and she's getting enough milk. And
that's, that's all you need to know, like, so yeah. So I found that a real
great reassurance every week when I went to Weyer. And yeah. And then actually
my, the, our lactation consultant was really encouraging me to get off the
nipple shields.

And inhindsight, I feel I put too much pressure on myself to do [00:23:00] that. She
did come off the nipple shields. I don't know, was she five or six weeks? It
was early enough, but she had arm black. She was getting enough milk as it was,
so I don't really see why there was pressure. And I put myself under pressure
when I was recovering physically and mentally.

and I was doingfine. So that's one thing in hindsight that I wouldn't have put so much
pressure on myself to change it. And I did have my cousin's partner I remember
her telling me, I think about five or six weeks, she was like, Oh, sure. I had
their baby Ruby on the nipple shields the whole pregnancy, or sorry, the whole
pregnancy, the whole, like right until she naturally weaned at like a year and
a half or something.

And that wasreally nice to hear. Um, And it gave me a bit of reassurance, but yeah, we did,
we did come off the nipple shields and then we exclusively breastfed right up
until probably like a couple of weeks ago. Yeah, [00:24:00] so she, she weaned
and then yeah, and then, well, oh no, no, sorry, I take that back.

I went back towork at eight and a half months and she would not take a bottle. It wasn't by
choice. It was not my choice. This baby would not take a bottle. Yeah, I tried
every bottle. My cousin would give me loads like Nook and Mam and all the
different brands. She wouldn't take anything. And my, like, and my mom is a
public health nurse, so like, she, you know, she's a bit of tough love.

Like, she waswilling to take this baby and try and shove him up in church. Because I was
anxious I was going to go back to work. And now, in hindsight, I realize it
would have been fine. I could have just fed in the morning and fed in the
evening and stuff. But, because she was, you know, she was on solids at that
stage.

But, yeah, I, Iwas keen to give her a bottle because I was, Wrecked. Yeah, I found kind of
around the four or five months I found probably the hardest part of my
breastfeeding journey where I just was tired [00:25:00] and honestly a bit sick
of the baby and wanted to have more than a two, three hour, two and a half hour
break from my baby, you know, like so I would have loved to give her a bottle
at that stage to give myself some freedom.

But she wouldn'ttake one. So anyways, eight and a half months just before I went back to work,
I got a Dr. I forget the name.

Kimmi: Dr. Brown's?

Nora: Yeah, Dr. Brown's bottle. And shetook it. So that was great. A few weeks then to kind of get her going on those
bottles, but I still breastfed. And then so she would like, I'd feed in the
morning from the evening and then feed before bed.

And she'd take abottle during the day, then during the And we did that up until Now she's on
cow's milk, but she still continued to breastfeed up until a few weeks ago.
Yeah, and she just naturally weaned. That was one thing I was anxious, was
like, as she gets older now, obviously she can, you know, look for things and
throw a tantrum if she doesn't [00:26:00] get things, but she just Got so busy,
she wasn't really interested in the breastfeeding.

So I just kindof was like, yeah, I'm happy enough to stop feeding. I was actually happy
enough to stop feeding quite a while ago. I can't remember, maybe around 12
months. And I said it to my partner. And it was probably influenced by my
peers. A couple of the girls I still hang out with from breastfeeding group.

They hadfinished up breastfeeding. I was like, Oh, they're not breastfeeding. Like I
could just stop it. You know, like, And I get away with, I could have been,
like, I went to a conference for a couple of nights and it was fine. So I
didn't, you know, she didn't need me there all the time anymore, even though I
could still breastfeed, but I just was a bit over it, like.

And my husbandactually was like, no, I'd really prefer if you would keep breastfeeding. So
that was interesting piece where I had to think that like, Oh, my agency, my
body, but our baby. So anyways, I did keep breastfeeding and I was happy
enough. Yeah.

Kimmi: Amazing. That's incredible to [00:27:00]feed for so long and like have challenges just like,

Nora: Yeah, I had two other challenges thatI had were aside from the latch work.

I had vasospasm,or like rhinoids in my boobs, so I would be I think that's what it was anyways,
like my boobs would be. freezing, like burning, freezing. So I used to have
this before I had a baby, if I think it's cause my breasts are so big, when I
would go for a run. And so like, if it was cold outside, I'd go for a run, I'd
come home and like, I'd have to get in the shower straight away, a hot shower
to warm my boobs up again, because otherwise the rest of my body would be fine.

But they wouldbe like so sore for, you know, maybe a couple of hours afterwards. So. Then
that started happening with breastfeeding, and I would, you know, get up, feed
the baby in the middle of the night, go back to bed, couldn't sleep because my
boobs were so burning cold, so I didn't ever have like nipple pain that I was
all ready for, you know, I had this thing that I'd never heard of.[00:28:00]

And honestly,like, I think I tried lots of different things, but I don't know if I ever
really came to a solution. It just kind of went. And then the other thing I had
was a lot of blocked ducts. A lot of anxiety that they might turn into mastitis
and oh, oh, Kimmy, I do crazy things. So like you read on the internet.

To like, so ifthe block duct is at the top, then the baby's suck is strongest where the
bottom, where the chin is. So like, and to dangle feet, so like I, I was on all
fours, upside down over the baby. So like the baby's arse was in my face
basically. Just, it was ridiculous trying to get rid of this blocked duct.

But of course,then the baby's latch was like way off. So I ended up just causing more pain
and like nipple damage, which was disastrous. Oh, and milk blebs. Yeah, a lot
of milk blebs as well. So, but the blocked ducts, anyways, the solution I found
was our breastfeeding nurse gave me the what's it called?

Where youLymphatic drainage. So yeah, so like you rub under [00:29:00] your arm and you
rub kind of around your collarbone and then you rub your wrist like you're
rubbing a cat was the cue I was given. So nice and gently up towards the
armpit. And up towards the collarbone, and that and an ibuprofen worked for me
every time.

So once I gotmore confident, I don't know, you know, and then I would Google and be like,
oh, it's because your latch is wrong. And we're like, well, my latch seems
fine. I don't have any nipple pain. Like, she's growing. And then, yeah, so I
think they were just things that happened to me and I just had to, that I was
prone to, and I just had to reassure myself constantly at the time.

You know, onceyou get over them, like, it's fine, you know, it's not, you're not doing
anything wrong. This is just your journey.

Kimmi: Oh, it's just, ugh, like, it's such anatural thing to do, to breastfeed. But the things that can go wrong and the
issues that we get, it's unreal. So I never had anything like, like blebs or,
or block ducks or anything at all.

And they're,it's [00:30:00] just, there's just so many things that can go wrong. It's
incredible.

Nora: And I do wonder, like, you know, theydid it for generations, but was it that, There were wet nurses, there was, you
know, you all the women were probably around seeing women breastfeed from a lot
younger age. I don't know. I don't know.

But yeah, it, I,I thought, you know, I did what I felt was like, I, I didn't feel prepared when
it came to the breastfeeding, but I had done as much as I could. Like I, I'd
sought out training and I'd sought out, and yet I didn't. Know what was coming.
So yeah.

Kimmi: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like I said in myinterview, like you do all this training for, for the birth and then they just
hand you a child and say, go home.

Nora: And I felt so prepared for the birth.Like I was like, I got this. I know what's coming. I know like basically all of
the potential eventualities of this, that, and the other. I mean, That [00:31:00]
stood to me. But I didn't, didn't, didn't know any of the eventualities for
breastfeeding. Yeah,

Kimmi: So you've said about how Cian hadgiven you advice to ask for help on the initial day at postpartum. What else
was his role in your breastfeeding journey?

Nora: So he is a bit of a health nut.

So he was keenon breastfeeding. Not, probably, you know, not motivated the way I was, but but
yeah, he was brilliant. I was so tired that I I just couldn't, I think, because
of a physiologically traumatic birth, I was fine, I was happy with my birth, but
the, you know, I did two surgeries, my arm was really low like physiologically
I was really struggling, just trying to recover, because I also had a new baby
to look after, and he would cook the dinners, he would put them on a plate, he
would cook my porridge in the mornings and put it in a bowl in the fridge, so
that all I had to do was take that plate and put it in the microwave to heat it
up, [00:32:00] I'm honest to God, that was all I was capable of for quite a
long time.

And I think, youknow, he fed me so I could feed the baby. And that was a pretty huge role in my
own physical recovery and in my breastfeeding journey. So yeah, that was really
good. And then I suppose that moment where I wanted to give up and he asked me
not to, I thought that was, I still don't know how I feel about that, but yeah,
I do really appreciate him for encouraging me.

And I supposecheerleading me and taking, I suppose, an active role in thinking about our
child. So yeah, so he had a, he had a pretty big role actually in, in my
breastfeeding journey. Wish you could have breastfed them. That would have been
gracious. I was not one of those women who like, you know, you hear about like.

People who areso into breastfeeding. And, look, I'm thrilled that I got to do it for so long,
but honestly, like, I didn't, for a lot of the beginning, I just felt like I
was a head attached to a breast. Like, my baby, this whole bonding thing, I [00:33:00]
didn't feel it. You know, obviously she's my baby, but like, I felt like all
she wanted me for was the boob.

And the bondingthat I felt really came when she was a little bit older and she, Could look for
me and smile at me and things like that and that's where I got more joy. And
for somebody who was so motivated to breastfeed from such a young age, didn't
bring me the joy that I had heard it brings others.

You know, I amproud of myself. I am pig headed. So I was doing it and I'm proud that I did
it. And it's, you know, and I'm proud that I did it for my baby. But, yeah, you
know, I can see the benefits of combined feeding, you know, if I was to do it
again, I'd probably try and get a bottle in a little bit earlier, take myself a
bit more of a break. Yeah, so, it's funny, it's, yeah, my experience has
definitely made me less binary about breastfeeding. There are so many ways to
do it, and everyone's different, yeah.

Kimmi: Okay, so, [00:34:00] will I ask onemore question and then round us? Okay so, if you were to do it all again, what
tips or advice would you have for yourself and for other, other expectant mums
or mums that are maybe not breastfed before?

Nora: I would advise them to listen toBreastfeeding Stories Ad because I listened to hundreds of hours of birth
stories and everybody learns differently, but I learned so much from women's
stories and the different stories and, you know, like we've said, every journey
is just so different, but the repeated exposure, I just picked up so much
information.

And that made mevery prepared for birth. So that is what motivated me to start this podcast
because, you know, I would love that resource to be there for breastfeeding.

Kimmi: Amazing. Amazing. Well, thank you somuch Nora for letting me interview you on your own podcast.

Thank you verymuch for interviewing [00:35:00] me.

Thanks forlistening. If you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the episode with a
friend and rate and review the podcast wherever you get your podcasts from. My
special thanks to this week's guest and to Una Neil Anagon for the original
music. To feature on the podcast, go to www.

breastfeedingstoriespod.com Click on tell your story and book a slot.

Overcoming Breastfeeding Challenges: Nora's Story

In this unique episode of Breastfeeding Stories Pod, host Nora switches roles to become the guest, sharing her personal breastfeeding journey. As a registered dietitian and public health nutrition lecturer, Nora details her initial struggles despite her extensive knowledge. Interviewed by previous guest Kimmy, Nora discusses her early interest in breastfeeding,

bolstered by her family's support. She candidly shares her experiences with flat nipples, latch issues, and the challenges of pumping and using nipple shields. Nora also highlights the significant support from her partner and a local lactation consultant in overcoming these hurdles. The episode provides honest insights and practical tips for new and expectant mothers navigating their breastfeeding journeys.

00:00Introduction to Breastfeeding Stories Pod

00:50 Nora'sBackground and Motivation

03:47Breastfeeding Preparation and Challenges

07:08 Birth andInitial Breastfeeding Experience

10:34 OvercomingEarly Breastfeeding Hurdles

13:29 NippleShields and Supplementing

20:11 SupportSystems and Continued Breastfeeding

31:05 Reflectionsand Advice for New Moms

34:52 Conclusion and Podcast Outro

Use a text section to describe your values, show more info, summarize a topic, or tell a story. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore.